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Old 01-22-2016 | 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ArcticOtter
You are exactly right. The plane is great but the company is dysfunctional and on the verge of bankruptcy. The recent $3.2 billion right down virtually guarantees the program will never turn a profit and each plane will cost the company more to make than it sells for until 2020. And that's at full list price. They lost $5 billion last year and recently took a $1.2 billion bailout from the Quebec government as well as now saying they need another billion dollar bailout. Bombardier can't afford to discount big, the only way a good deal could be made is by having the Canadian tax payer make up the difference which is unlikely.
Never underestimate the power of socialism.... if it only takes a few $B to keep the citizens gainfully employed.... also, with the loonie now at $0.70, it has to help make the C series much more affordable.
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Old 01-22-2016 | 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Mesabah
It's not the airplane, it's the company. Bombardier is not well run, and it is risky for Delta to purchase the C-Series from a virtually bankrupt company. Now if RA gets a great deal on these planes, and Airbus acquires BB, that would be massive win for Delta.
No doubt Bombardier has had some serious issue lately that were largely due to the P&W engine blow up and the decision to fund the ill-fated Lear 85 program - too much on their plate at one time. However, it looks like they are more focused now. Plus, the Quebec government has injected some equity into the C-Series program - the last thing they need is thousands of lost aerospace jobs in Quebec.

As far as capital or purchase risk is concerned, if I were RA (don't you hate it when pilots think they are executives?), I would consider a mix of purchased and leased CS300 airframes and make it all contingent on more equity investment from the Quebec government to ensure a full ramp-up of production. Make any order CONTINGENT. That way Quebec gets assurances that a legacy carrier will order the airplane and preserve jobs as well. Again, the per-unit price better be dang low for Delta to consider it. Negotiations call for creativity on both sides. The Republic CS300 orders/options exist with nowhere to go - now you need to do something with them...

Also, remember that Bombardier already has the infrastructure to support these new airplanes through their current CRJ and Dash 8 service centers and service reps. The support infrastructure exists. No doubt I have seen some poor quality service in the past on the CRJ - it will need to get better.

Bottom line: the C-Series is a big leap in technology and performance. Unit price has got to be negotiated down to be attractive. Aircraft risk with the bigger CS300 should be lower if the CS100 introduction at SWISS in a month or two goes well considering the 95% commonality between the two airframes. The CEO of Bombardier is the former head of aircraft leasing at ILFC (giant aircraft lessor) - if anyone can do a creative deal it is that guy.

In the end, all of this speculation could be wasted talk. You never know... No doubt the C-Series would be nice to fly, but bean counters couldn't care less about that....
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Old 01-22-2016 | 11:34 AM
  #43  
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So if Bombardier folds and the C Series dies, that leaves Embraer as the lone jumbo RJ provider. Which really it already is. Just wonder what happens for DAL and Embraer if the C Series dies.

I guess DAL can always play a more used Airbus 319s to gain leverage. Or maybe they should just do more used A319s anyways. And nobody wants the 318.... probably cheap buy, no? Idk.
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Old 01-22-2016 | 11:39 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
So if Bombardier folds and the C Series dies, that leaves Embraer as the lone jumbo RJ provider. Which really it already is. Just wonder what happens for DAL and Embraer if the C Series dies.

I guess DAL can always play a more used Airbus 319s to gain leverage. Or maybe they should just do more used A319s anyways. And nobody wants the 318.... probably cheap buy, no? Idk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Regional_Jet
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Old 01-22-2016 | 12:40 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
So if Bombardier folds and the C Series dies, that leaves Embraer as the lone jumbo RJ provider. Which really it already is. Just wonder what happens for DAL and Embraer if the C Series dies.

I guess DAL can always play a more used Airbus 319s to gain leverage. Or maybe they should just do more used A319s anyways. And nobody wants the 318.... probably cheap buy, no? Idk.
We so need yet another fleet type on the property.
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Old 01-22-2016 | 12:57 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by qball
We so need yet another fleet type on the property.
I think I'm going to try to get a type rating on every one of them before I retire! I have to figure out which fleet is downsizing next (747 or MD88 or 757 or...?) then just bid into that fleet first, then keep getting displaced to the next shrinking fleet, pretty soon I'll have a year of training payback days!
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Old 01-22-2016 | 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by full of luv
Never underestimate the power of socialism.... if it only takes a few $B to keep the citizens gainfully employed.... also, with the loonie now at $0.70, it has to help make the C series much more affordable.
I'm fairly certain that aircraft are sold in USD no matter where they are produced. Similar to crude oil in that respect.
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Old 01-22-2016 | 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
So if Bombardier folds and the C Series dies, that leaves Embraer as the lone jumbo RJ provider. Which really it already is. Just wonder what happens for DAL and Embraer if the C Series dies.

I guess DAL can always play a more used Airbus 319s to gain leverage. Or maybe they should just do more used A319s anyways. And nobody wants the 318.... probably cheap buy, no? Idk.
Bombardier does not need a legacy order for the C-Series to survive. It would be nice but not an absolute requirement to survive. BBD could use more equity from the government or a private equity firm to ensure a faster production ramp-up.

Regarding the Mitisubishi MRJ - it looks like a nice and capable airplane, but it doesn't currently have a support infrastructure in place like Bombardier or Embraer.

Given that Bombardier has hinted that a CS500 (150+ seater) could be produced down the line if the CS300 and CS100 do well in the market, all airlines would be better off with more manufacturer choices than fewer choices. More choices = more competition, more innovation and lower aircraft prices.

Last edited by David Puddy; 01-22-2016 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 01-22-2016 | 05:37 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Timbo
I think I'm going to try to get a type rating on every one of them before I retire! I have to figure out which fleet is downsizing next (747 or MD88 or 757 or...?) then just bid into that fleet first, then keep getting displaced to the next shrinking fleet, pretty soon I'll have a year of training payback days!
Then after retirement you can don the polo and work as an instructor in the training department, Instructor Timbo!
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Old 01-22-2016 | 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Elliot
Then after retirement you can don the polo and work as an instructor in the training department, Instructor Timbo!
I've been working on my briefing:

"You guys just do what ever it is you need to do, and wake me up before you go home..."
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