Progression for all
12-05-2019, 05:43 AM
#11
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 896
Originally Posted by JonGoodsell764
After having done this for many years I’ve learned a few things the hard way. One of them is that your regional “union” is powerless. ALPA is a mainline union. They will do what benefits their mainline carriers.
Second, it sounds as though propel is entirely unfair to the current seniority list pilot group. That much is clear. However, there is already a two class pilot system at 9E. Those who have been scorned by DAL, and those who have not. It doesn’t sound like your union has a plan because they don’t. The old guard wants flow because that’s the only way they’re getting to Delta. The younger group wants some sort of contractual DGI. Any sort of contractual progression would be entirely unfair to the 70% of the pilot group that hasn’t had one shot at DAL yet, let alone several.
If you’re an old dog, wear the lanyard. If you’ve been on property less than 5 years and are wearing it, why? You’re supporting something that would delay your movement to DAL. That’s how it seems to me as an outsider.
Second, it sounds as though propel is entirely unfair to the current seniority list pilot group. That much is clear. However, there is already a two class pilot system at 9E. Those who have been scorned by DAL, and those who have not. It doesn’t sound like your union has a plan because they don’t. The old guard wants flow because that’s the only way they’re getting to Delta. The younger group wants some sort of contractual DGI. Any sort of contractual progression would be entirely unfair to the 70% of the pilot group that hasn’t had one shot at DAL yet, let alone several.
If you’re an old dog, wear the lanyard. If you’ve been on property less than 5 years and are wearing it, why? You’re supporting something that would delay your movement to DAL. That’s how it seems to me as an outsider.
12-05-2019, 05:56 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 888
Originally Posted by Green Needles
We know it's a two class system, we know, we know, we know. I'm tired of the same lines from the union. I want to know what their plan is, if they even have one.
What is their end goal? What does their definition of a successful outcome of this campaign look like? I'm tired of hearing the vague "guaranteed and contractual" statement. We deserve to be told in concrete terms what they are shooting for. We also deserve to know if the other side is even willing to talk.
Until anyone can provide those details, there's no sense in repeating the same old crap. Every email from them on this says the same exact thing.
What is their end goal? What does their definition of a successful outcome of this campaign look like? I'm tired of hearing the vague "guaranteed and contractual" statement. We deserve to be told in concrete terms what they are shooting for. We also deserve to know if the other side is even willing to talk.
Until anyone can provide those details, there's no sense in repeating the same old crap. Every email from them on this says the same exact thing.
There were a set of emails last year that explained it but the best shot the union came up with was a system of gates (or hoops whatever you'd like to call them) that once passed would allow pilots to advance to Delta. The goal was figure out what Delta thinks is the value of their interview process; for example maybe it values community service, if that's the case then the gate could be; completed 500 hours of community service (or some number). Once you passed all the gates then you'd advance to Delta. Unfortunately the union proposed that type of merit based advancement to Delta management and didn't get a positive reaction. So I think at this point the lanyard campaign is intended to bring Delta management to the table to try to figure out some kind (any kind) of guaranteed contractual career progression.
But that's just one pilot's interpretation of what we've been told by the union up to this point, I could be completely off base.
12-05-2019, 05:58 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Position: ATL FO
Posts: 189
Originally Posted by Green Needles
We know it's a two class system, we know, we know, we know. I'm tired of the same lines from the union. I want to know what their plan is, if they even have one.
What is their end goal? What does their definition of a successful outcome of this campaign look like? I'm tired of hearing the vague "guaranteed and contractual" statement. We deserve to be told in concrete terms what they are shooting for. We also deserve to know if the other side is even willing to talk.
Until anyone can provide those details, there's no sense in repeating the same old crap. Every email from them on this says the same exact thing.
What is their end goal? What does their definition of a successful outcome of this campaign look like? I'm tired of hearing the vague "guaranteed and contractual" statement. We deserve to be told in concrete terms what they are shooting for. We also deserve to know if the other side is even willing to talk.
Until anyone can provide those details, there's no sense in repeating the same old crap. Every email from them on this says the same exact thing.
Disclaimer: old/young pilots are referring to seniority list not age.
12-05-2019, 06:01 AM
#14
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Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 159
Originally Posted by Avroman
I don't have a dog in this fight personally as I have no interest in working at Delta (or anywhere else at my age) anymore but I'd think we should be putting much more effort into career progression with some other airline. Why is everyone here so set on having to go to Delta? They have no interest in giving up their petty little games they play in ATL with their hiring. There are plenty of other airlines that (while maybe not the perfect end destination) are a step up from the regionals. What's wrong with talking to Allegiant, Frontier, or even places like JetBlue or Southwest? It amazes me how many FO's I've flown with that have blinders on for Delta with no backup if they get turned down.
12-05-2019, 07:03 AM
#15
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Originally Posted by Blueskies21
I think you won't hear many more details because at this point the union is willing to take just about anything that counts as guaranteed and contractual.
There were a set of emails last year that explained it but the best shot the union came up with was a system of gates (or hoops whatever you'd like to call them) that once passed would allow pilots to advance to Delta. The goal was figure out what Delta thinks is the value of their interview process; for example maybe it values community service, if that's the case then the gate could be; completed 500 hours of community service (or some number). Once you passed all the gates then you'd advance to Delta. Unfortunately the union proposed that type of merit based advancement to Delta management and didn't get a positive reaction. So I think at this point the lanyard campaign is intended to bring Delta management to the table to try to figure out some kind (any kind) of guaranteed contractual career progression.
But that's just one pilot's interpretation of what we've been told by the union up to this point, I could be completely off base.
There were a set of emails last year that explained it but the best shot the union came up with was a system of gates (or hoops whatever you'd like to call them) that once passed would allow pilots to advance to Delta. The goal was figure out what Delta thinks is the value of their interview process; for example maybe it values community service, if that's the case then the gate could be; completed 500 hours of community service (or some number). Once you passed all the gates then you'd advance to Delta. Unfortunately the union proposed that type of merit based advancement to Delta management and didn't get a positive reaction. So I think at this point the lanyard campaign is intended to bring Delta management to the table to try to figure out some kind (any kind) of guaranteed contractual career progression.
But that's just one pilot's interpretation of what we've been told by the union up to this point, I could be completely off base.
The union needs to focus on getting career progression from elsewhere, otherwise Propel is going to destroy this airline when Delta backlogs its hiring.
12-05-2019, 09:54 AM
#16
Part of the problem
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Position: CRJ200 CA
Posts: 577
Originally Posted by Green Needles
We know it's a two class system, we know, we know, we know. I'm tired of the same lines from the union. I want to know what their plan is, if they even have one.
What is their end goal? What does their definition of a successful outcome of this campaign look like? I'm tired of hearing the vague "guaranteed and contractual" statement. We deserve to be told in concrete terms what they are shooting for. We also deserve to know if the other side is even willing to talk.
Until anyone can provide those details, there's no sense in repeating the same old crap. Every email from them on this says the same exact thing.
What is their end goal? What does their definition of a successful outcome of this campaign look like? I'm tired of hearing the vague "guaranteed and contractual" statement. We deserve to be told in concrete terms what they are shooting for. We also deserve to know if the other side is even willing to talk.
Until anyone can provide those details, there's no sense in repeating the same old crap. Every email from them on this says the same exact thing.
I am not implying you are an idiot, but surely you must realize the union can't show their hand? That simply doesn't work.
12-05-2019, 09:58 AM
#17
Part of the problem
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Position: CRJ200 CA
Posts: 577
Originally Posted by Mesabah
Delta has only one value, one Rule of the Road: The Delta way or the highway.
The union needs to focus on getting career progression from elsewhere, otherwise Propel is going to destroy this airline when Delta backlogs its hiring.
The union needs to focus on getting career progression from elsewhere, otherwise Propel is going to destroy this airline when Delta backlogs its hiring.
As far as progression elsewhere, like a flow? I just don't see that working, with us being a wholly owned. A flow works both ways, with us becoming furlough protection for the bigger fish.
12-05-2019, 10:31 AM
#18
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 896
Originally Posted by Flogger
You need to read AN IDIOT'S GUIDE TO NEGOTIATING.
I am not implying you are an idiot, but surely you must realize the union can't show their hand? That simply doesn't work.
I am not implying you are an idiot, but surely you must realize the union can't show their hand? That simply doesn't work.
The union would have a better chance of the pilot group supporting this initiative if we knew what "guaranteed and contractual" looks like. Is it a contractual DGI, a flow, something in between? There is much division in the pilot group and better union communication beyond repeating the exact same talking points would help.
12-05-2019, 11:17 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: CaptFo
Posts: 997
Originally Posted by Flogger
The 9E union does arrange for job fairs and various interview preps. Not all are focused on Delta.
As far as progression elsewhere, like a flow? I just don't see that working, with us being a wholly owned. A flow works both ways, with us becoming furlough protection for the bigger fish.
As far as progression elsewhere, like a flow? I just don't see that working, with us being a wholly owned. A flow works both ways, with us becoming furlough protection for the bigger fish.
12-05-2019, 11:52 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 213
Originally Posted by Yumyum
Delta doesn’t want any part of the guys/gals that they turned down. Unlike American which has had pilots flow after being rejected. Unfortunately because of the SSP drama we are stuck in this pickle.
Flow ‘em all, let training and pro stands sort ‘em out. There are ways Delta can deal with the people they don’t want. It might turn out that there are some excellent pilots with very good customer service skills that don’t interview well...
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