Endeavor Bonus to Pay Rates Discussion
12-24-2016, 06:49 PM
#31
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: CRJ CA
Posts: 72
We will likely get paid the minimum it takes to get people to work here. By "paid" its always some combination of money + compensating differentials. They are not quite getting enough right now, so we shall see what they come up with next.
12-24-2016, 07:05 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: FIRE ALPA
Posts: 3,082
Originally Posted by SmitteyB
I'm all for getting as much money as we possibly can for our services, but I am also mindful that this is a marathon and not a sprint. We need to ensure the airline survives in 15 years. That means not pricing ourselves out of the market.
Things are nice and dandy and candy and sunshine right now because ATL is making money...one economic downturn and they will be coming right back here for their money back. And if they don't like our costs or if we aren't competitive, we WILL be Comair'd.
I did union work for 6 years. I signed Disclosure Agreements, Saw debt obligation litigation, and spoke with CEOs and the like...the one thing I took away from my union work was---
Management does NOT and will NEVER see us as an asset.
We are simply a cost which MUST be controlled.
The quicker we can come to terms with this realization, the more you will understand about airline management and whipsaw.
Things are nice and dandy and candy and sunshine right now because ATL is making money...one economic downturn and they will be coming right back here for their money back. And if they don't like our costs or if we aren't competitive, we WILL be Comair'd.
I did union work for 6 years. I signed Disclosure Agreements, Saw debt obligation litigation, and spoke with CEOs and the like...the one thing I took away from my union work was---
Management does NOT and will NEVER see us as an asset.
We are simply a cost which MUST be controlled.
The quicker we can come to terms with this realization, the more you will understand about airline management and whipsaw.
12-24-2016, 07:25 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: FIRE ALPA
Posts: 3,082
Originally Posted by FMS Fault
Converting the bonus to permanent pay is SIMPLE.
Let the current bonus expire and replace it with a Base Salary of $958.33 per pay period, which equals $23,000 per year.
EVERYTHING ELSE stays the same. And everybody is kept whole. Nobody should find this objectionable; if anyone does then there's a hidden agenda.
Calculating 401K, life insurance, vacation pay, etc., etc., could factor in, or exclude, the Base Salary earned in order to keep the company and the employees whole.
Let the current bonus expire and replace it with a Base Salary of $958.33 per pay period, which equals $23,000 per year.
EVERYTHING ELSE stays the same. And everybody is kept whole. Nobody should find this objectionable; if anyone does then there's a hidden agenda.
Calculating 401K, life insurance, vacation pay, etc., etc., could factor in, or exclude, the Base Salary earned in order to keep the company and the employees whole.
12-24-2016, 07:29 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 480
Originally Posted by Avroman
This is why ALPA is a failure. A bunch of individual associations looking out for themselves rather than a true union willing to stand together.... then again that in itself is impossible as regional and mainline ALPA are in direct conflict of interest with each other in many ways. The sooner we realize if we ALL stood together and made it clear every pilot, not just ones at one specific company would stand together and walk the line, we could have a shot at making all airline pilot jobs liveable in pay and work rules. Put all airlines on the same footing as far as pilot contracts. Work as a true UNION and not a bunch of cutthroat associations.
I got no fight with ALPA but you watch the things APA says to their brothers at Envoy (american eagle at the time of bankruptcy) in public statements, it makes me wonder why ALPA leadership cant be the same way. I used to think they hated us, and now I see they simply neglect regionals.
Maybe years back it'll all make sense once i don the double breast and pound down the koolaid. You're on guard!!
12-24-2016, 07:46 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 480
Originally Posted by Avroman
We could have, and probably even should have, all given 2 weeks notice when the bankruptcy TA was presented for vote back in 2012...
Meanwhile, years from now, the next pittance that gets tossed to you after the bonuses expire will pass with about 88% just like the bankruptcy contract. 100% of tough talkers will still beat their chest and claim they voted no, and alpa screwed them years ago because they didnt get the bonuses turned into rates.
It's always ALPAs fault, because no one likes looking in mirrors.
12-24-2016, 08:18 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: FIRE ALPA
Posts: 3,082
Originally Posted by JesuitValen
yeah but no one does that stuff, because adulthood is about making logical decisons based on reality. Im a millennial and even I learned that. What tough talkers do is vote yes just like i did, but claim they voted no, and pretend it's everyone elses fault the vote passed. The tough talkers never leave, they just talk.
Meanwhile, years from now, the next pittance that gets tossed to you after the bonuses expire will pass with about 88% just like the bankruptcy contract. 100% of tough talkers will still beat their chest and claim they voted no, and alpa screwed them years ago because they didnt get the bonuses turned into rates.
It's always ALPAs fault, because no one likes looking in mirrors.
Meanwhile, years from now, the next pittance that gets tossed to you after the bonuses expire will pass with about 88% just like the bankruptcy contract. 100% of tough talkers will still beat their chest and claim they voted no, and alpa screwed them years ago because they didnt get the bonuses turned into rates.
It's always ALPAs fault, because no one likes looking in mirrors.
12-25-2016, 06:16 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: CaptFo
Posts: 997
Originally Posted by Avroman
And I'll be that same A-hole that will be the one in the road show calling out why this is a long term poor choice while being shouted down by lifers that can't start over just like 2012. (most of whom should have already retired if not for age 65) I'll gladly release my ALPA voting record.. I have nothing to hide there. My opinion of ALPA isn't a secret.... I'll be happy to confirm it in person... It's sad to say coming from someone from a union family from a union state... ALPA isn't a union, sorry. This is a good ole boys club that looks out for its status quo, and looks out for mainline in direct conflict of interest of the regionals it also represents. Worst of all short of worthless picket lines there is no real backing of one MEC by others when the poop hits the fan. Last ALPA strike was Spirit in what 2010? How many other carriers showed any support? None, besides a few guys in hats walking circles... A real union means NO PILOTS move airplanes during that strike.
12-25-2016, 09:44 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 480
Originally Posted by Avroman
And I'll be that same A-hole that will be the one in the road show calling out why this is a long term poor choice while being shouted down by lifers that can't start over just like 2012. (most of whom should have already retired if not for age 65) I'll gladly release my ALPA voting record.. I have nothing to hide there. My opinion of ALPA isn't a secret.... I'll be happy to confirm it in person... It's sad to say coming from someone from a union family from a union state... ALPA isn't a union, sorry. This is a good ole boys club that looks out for its status quo, and looks out for mainline in direct conflict of interest of the regionals it also represents. Worst of all short of worthless picket lines there is no real backing of one MEC by others when the poop hits the fan. Last ALPA strike was Spirit in what 2010? How many other carriers showed any support? None, besides a few guys in hats walking circles... A real union means NO PILOTS move airplanes during that strike.
ALPA doesn't approve the strike the RLA does.
Sympathy striking isnt legal under the RLA. What the heck do you want from guys? You say walking in circles doesnt help.
Regionals dont put in as much money as services they use. Heck, jetblue and frontier give nothing. Mainline and fedex covers the difference.
If alpa national is such a good old boys group, why is there a difference national president every two years? Lets try a good old boys club once, the steel workers, cop, and plumbers unions all seem to do that and it works fine. Because ever pilot is a special snowflake.
Hey you didnt like the bankruptcy? Neither did any of us. You dont want to vote yes to a bankruptcy contract, thats fine, but your gambling with the judge and whatever he imposes, good luck with that. He majority of pilots here voted the other way. Leave next time, youve got this figured out. Im leaving, the place is all yours cowboy.
Merry christmas to all, to all a good night.
12-25-2016, 09:57 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,237
Originally Posted by JesuitValen
Your impracticality knows no bounds.
ALPA doesn't approve the strike the RLA does.
Sympathy striking isnt legal under the RLA. What the heck do you want from guys? You say walking in circles doesnt help.
Regionals dont put in as much money as services they use. Heck, jetblue and frontier give nothing. Mainline and fedex covers the difference.
If alpa national is such a good old boys group, why is there a difference national president every two years? Lets try a good old boys club once, the steel workers, cop, and plumbers unions all seem to do that and it works fine. Because ever pilot is a special snowflake.
Hey you didnt like the bankruptcy? Neither did any of us. You dont want to vote yes to a bankruptcy contract, thats fine, but your gambling with the judge and whatever he imposes, good luck with that. He majority of pilots here voted the other way. Leave next time, youve got this figured out. Im leaving, the place is all yours cowboy.
Merry christmas to all, to all a good night.
ALPA doesn't approve the strike the RLA does.
Sympathy striking isnt legal under the RLA. What the heck do you want from guys? You say walking in circles doesnt help.
Regionals dont put in as much money as services they use. Heck, jetblue and frontier give nothing. Mainline and fedex covers the difference.
If alpa national is such a good old boys group, why is there a difference national president every two years? Lets try a good old boys club once, the steel workers, cop, and plumbers unions all seem to do that and it works fine. Because ever pilot is a special snowflake.
Hey you didnt like the bankruptcy? Neither did any of us. You dont want to vote yes to a bankruptcy contract, thats fine, but your gambling with the judge and whatever he imposes, good luck with that. He majority of pilots here voted the other way. Leave next time, youve got this figured out. Im leaving, the place is all yours cowboy.
Merry christmas to all, to all a good night.
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