Everyone mocked the 2.5 year upgrade claim, too. Here we are 2 years later and it's actually way less than that. Projections can go up or down, but in this time of unprecedented pilot hiring, I expect them to trend to the optimistic side.

Getting all upset over the recruiting department's claims of flow time reeks of frustration and jealousy because guys hired today will have it way better than you did.

 

Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

 

You are right, it was mocked. At the time, we had very low FO pay and a trickle of new hires coming in the front door. It was mocked because management said they thought flow was enough to recruit, and that they didn't need to raise pay. That was definitely worthy of mockery, especially since their upgrade projections depended on a huge amount of new hires that was unimaginable at those pay rates. I'm really glad they saw the light and raised pay like they said they wouldn't. I'm sure it had a negligible effect but legitimate negative press helps pressure management to do the right thing sometimes.

I am frustrated but I am not jealous. Anyone who is jealous of today's new hires would do well to think about those who spent 20 years here and flowed in their 50s. Today's Captains waiting for flow have it much better than they did. I've never met a Captain here who is upset that FOs make more money. Have you? Every single one I've talked to is happy about it, thinks they deserve it and that it was a long time in coming. Myself included.

 

No, that's not it at all. ORD is spot on here. I am GLAD that today's F/O's won't have to go through what we did, I am GLAD they are making closer to a reasonable wage for their skills.

The problem here, as usual, lies with the inability of management (both envoy and AAG) to understand that the morale of your employees matters, and to be extremely tone deaf in their communications with the employee group. You have to remember that when Charlie Bucket's golden ticket promises were made, the scars of bankruptcy, the Comair II threats, and the 500 pilots that management chased off to other carriers were still pretty fresh. Quite frankly, most of us didn't believe a damn thing they said. As has been proven, not only were the concessions we took economically unjustified, but they ended up raising effective F/O pay far higher than it had been, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT WE TOLD THEM WOULD HAPPEN. After putting us through hell for absolutely no reason, we don't exactly trust the people that are supposed to be managing this company.

So when management lackeys (some of which are just trolls) want to sell this rosy picture to potential new-hires (without realistically talking about the potential pitfalls), you're damn right some of us have a problem with it. I'm sorry, but "they're just supposed to know better" isn't justification for lying through omission or following the best practices of a used-car salesman. Personally, I think that is unethical, especially when someone is making a decision about a purely seniority-based career.

Before one of them accuses me of being a grumpy old codger, I HAVE actually helped recruit a pilot whom asked me about envoy. I told him the good and bad, positives and negatives, and he still made an informed decision to apply. I want this company to succeed, but not based on the backs of starry-eyed new hires fed rainbow sherbert.

 

When you have sell an airline based on upgrade time and flow time then you realize there are serious flaws with the airline itself.

Long term problems Envoy pilots face on a day to day basis:

Low credit days/ Bad flight file from AAG
Pre 117 reserve rules (Pre Assigned RAP 1)
Pay comp habitually short pays its pilots. (If you don't audit your pay sheets then you are losing money)
Disproportionate amount of reserve pilots.
Absurd amount of airport standby pilots.
Leave of Absence company harassing pilots.
Fatigue calls converting to MAs.

I'm sure other pilots can add their grievances to the list.

 

I think you are confusing crazy internet people with recruiters.

 

I'll add your 3rd sick call in a rolling year results in an in depth conversation with the CPO and possibly a coach and counsel. At least in ORD.

 

They violate Section 11 M. every day.

 

They are calling RAP1s at 4am to put them in rest for 10 hours during the middle of the day, then expect the said pilot to be fully rested to work from 2pm to 2am.

I think there's a push to get the FEDs involved in this issue.

 

Does anyone outside the guys close to the flow actually care anymore about flowing? It's like 8 years now. Prospective pilots are now even talking about "beating the flow" LOL