Envoy 2019
12-05-2019, 07:09 AM
#2202
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,674
Originally Posted by dera
I edited my post.
My main reason for posting was to inform people of the ability to use a DH at the start or end as a tool should they get it.
12-05-2019, 07:16 AM
#2203
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,139
Originally Posted by dera
I see what you are saying. Those are problematic though.
That would turn our 17 hour 4-days into 18 hour 5-days. Or 13 hour 4-days.
First/last day deadhead would destroy our average line value.
I just see so many red flags in that.
That would turn our 17 hour 4-days into 18 hour 5-days. Or 13 hour 4-days.
First/last day deadhead would destroy our average line value.
I just see so many red flags in that.
Two flights to domicile a day, then build two lines that start that day at that min-base. Throw on the DH prior and after and let guys bid it.
Increase or decrease the lines from each mini base so they aren’t buying hotels and the guys just drop the DH.
Costs the company nothing and can make QOL a huge huge improvement. Play nice with the union and they’d probably be able to do it as a real mini base. Do like they did with Aspen. Allow guys to bid a mini base three to six months at a time. They can build the lines based upon the number of bidders.
Okay, no more freebies.... Ric, feel free to call. The number hasn’t changed.
12-05-2019, 07:43 AM
#2204
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,494
Originally Posted by Cyio
I agree with your edit and the points you make. Have you seen any trips with a DH on both ends. I haven’t but honestly haven’t been looking.
My main reason for posting was to inform people of the ability to use a DH at the start or end as a tool should they get it.
My main reason for posting was to inform people of the ability to use a DH at the start or end as a tool should they get it.
I think there are a few where the last day is just the DH. A few GEG trips I believe.
12-05-2019, 07:54 AM
#2205
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,494
Originally Posted by Cujo665
Only for guys that take the DH and or Hotel. The point is to build just enough that they are dropping the DH and the Hotel before starting the trip. Boom, no hotel costs, guy gets “based” at home, and FTDT drops to the non mini base line value.
Two flights to domicile a day, then build two lines that start that day at that min-base. Throw on the DH prior and after and let guys bid it.
Increase or decrease the lines from each mini base so they aren’t buying hotels and the guys just drop the DH.
Costs the company nothing and can make QOL a huge huge improvement. Play nice with the union and they’d probably be able to do it as a real mini base. Do like they did with Aspen. Allow guys to bid a mini base three to six months at a time. They can build the lines based upon the number of bidders.
Okay, no more freebies.... Ric, feel free to call. The number hasn’t changed.
Two flights to domicile a day, then build two lines that start that day at that min-base. Throw on the DH prior and after and let guys bid it.
Increase or decrease the lines from each mini base so they aren’t buying hotels and the guys just drop the DH.
Costs the company nothing and can make QOL a huge huge improvement. Play nice with the union and they’d probably be able to do it as a real mini base. Do like they did with Aspen. Allow guys to bid a mini base three to six months at a time. They can build the lines based upon the number of bidders.
Okay, no more freebies.... Ric, feel free to call. The number hasn’t changed.
Also, LOA 11-03 says DHD drops don't drop their min adjusted credit. So no real savings there either.
What you're suggesting is custom tailoring a bunch of lines to people who live in these cities. And then hoping they will actually bid for them. Pilots don't always bid what you expect them to bid. We have ultra-senior captains living in DFW bidding for Mexico flying. And some commuters doing the day trips and collecting millions of Red Roof Inn points.
I'm guessing when they increase our West Coast presence, we will see more deadheads to start or finish trips. But to build lines with DHD in the beginning and end, that is unlikely.
12-07-2019, 08:00 AM
#2206
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,139
Originally Posted by dera
The hotel costs money, doesn't matter if someone stays there or not. Those rooms are booked in blocks, usually a month in advance.
Also, LOA 11-03 says DHD drops don't drop their min adjusted credit. So no real savings there either.
What you're suggesting is custom tailoring a bunch of lines to people who live in these cities. And then hoping they will actually bid for them. Pilots don't always bid what you expect them to bid. We have ultra-senior captains living in DFW bidding for Mexico flying. And some commuters doing the day trips and collecting millions of Red Roof Inn points.
I'm guessing when they increase our West Coast presence, we will see more deadheads to start or finish trips. But to build lines with DHD in the beginning and end, that is unlikely.
Also, LOA 11-03 says DHD drops don't drop their min adjusted credit. So no real savings there either.
What you're suggesting is custom tailoring a bunch of lines to people who live in these cities. And then hoping they will actually bid for them. Pilots don't always bid what you expect them to bid. We have ultra-senior captains living in DFW bidding for Mexico flying. And some commuters doing the day trips and collecting millions of Red Roof Inn points.
I'm guessing when they increase our West Coast presence, we will see more deadheads to start or finish trips. But to build lines with DHD in the beginning and end, that is unlikely.
Figuring out a way to have multiple mini-bases closer to where people live increases QOL significantly. It would cost them nothing if they did it something like the old Aspen bids. Do it at six months instead of 3 month cycles.
It can help the company as much as the pilots if done correctly. fewer bodies floating around on wasted pre-positioned overnights; guys getting to start & finish their trips from home.
The could do it with just changing the bid line. It would save them money, but not as much as if they got a deal with the union for real mini-bases. The old jetbridge swap LOA was great for guys to swap at outstations if they both lived there. I believe that LOA is still in effect.
Building a commutable trip on both ends (afternoon start and morning finish) is the same type of trip that would work with an early AM DH to the outstation. By adding the two DH's which won't actually be used, they get to make that line to/from a mini-base and save the hotel, and a few prepositioned overnights a month. That reduces staffing and hotel requirements too.
Is doing something to help get rid of lost overnights a bad thing? It helps both sides.
Look at Republic. roughly the same size pilot group. They have 13 bases all over the country rather than just 4. It makes it much more likely that a guy can be home based, which is a huge huge QOL improvement. They have a waiting list of several months to get into class, yet their upgrade time is one of the longest in the regional industry now.... why is that? Yes, their pay is roughly the same now, but they have very good reserve rules, no junior manning and very very limited airport standby. The work rules and living in base obviously have a significant value to the employees. With the shortage about to get worse, they need to get ahead of things soon.
12-07-2019, 08:25 AM
#2207
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,510
Originally Posted by Cujo665
As I said, the union should use the negotiating capital wisely. Taking a current 4 day trip, and adding an extra operating flight on day one in the AM to the Hub from a mini-base, and adding an extra operating flight at the end from the Hub to the min-base increases utilization. Why crashpad or hotel crews in base, if you can just start them & release them at the outstation?
Figuring out a way to have multiple mini-bases closer to where people live increases QOL significantly. It would cost them nothing if they did it something like the old Aspen bids. Do it at six months instead of 3 month cycles.
It can help the company as much as the pilots if done correctly. fewer bodies floating around on wasted pre-positioned overnights; guys getting to start & finish their trips from home.
The could do it with just changing the bid line. It would save them money, but not as much as if they got a deal with the union for real mini-bases. The old jetbridge swap LOA was great for guys to swap at outstations if they both lived there. I believe that LOA is still in effect.
Building a commutable trip on both ends (afternoon start and morning finish) is the same type of trip that would work with an early AM DH to the outstation. By adding the two DH's which won't actually be used, they get to make that line to/from a mini-base and save the hotel, and a few prepositioned overnights a month. That reduces staffing and hotel requirements too.
Is doing something to help get rid of lost overnights a bad thing? It helps both sides.
Look at Republic. roughly the same size pilot group. They have 13 bases all over the country rather than just 4. It makes it much more likely that a guy can be home based, which is a huge huge QOL improvement. They have a waiting list of several months to get into class, yet their upgrade time is one of the longest in the regional industry now.... why is that? Yes, their pay is roughly the same now, but they have very good reserve rules, no junior manning and very very limited airport standby. The work rules and living in base obviously have a significant value to the employees. With the shortage about to get worse, they need to get ahead of things soon.
Figuring out a way to have multiple mini-bases closer to where people live increases QOL significantly. It would cost them nothing if they did it something like the old Aspen bids. Do it at six months instead of 3 month cycles.
It can help the company as much as the pilots if done correctly. fewer bodies floating around on wasted pre-positioned overnights; guys getting to start & finish their trips from home.
The could do it with just changing the bid line. It would save them money, but not as much as if they got a deal with the union for real mini-bases. The old jetbridge swap LOA was great for guys to swap at outstations if they both lived there. I believe that LOA is still in effect.
Building a commutable trip on both ends (afternoon start and morning finish) is the same type of trip that would work with an early AM DH to the outstation. By adding the two DH's which won't actually be used, they get to make that line to/from a mini-base and save the hotel, and a few prepositioned overnights a month. That reduces staffing and hotel requirements too.
Is doing something to help get rid of lost overnights a bad thing? It helps both sides.
Look at Republic. roughly the same size pilot group. They have 13 bases all over the country rather than just 4. It makes it much more likely that a guy can be home based, which is a huge huge QOL improvement. They have a waiting list of several months to get into class, yet their upgrade time is one of the longest in the regional industry now.... why is that? Yes, their pay is roughly the same now, but they have very good reserve rules, no junior manning and very very limited airport standby. The work rules and living in base obviously have a significant value to the employees. With the shortage about to get worse, they need to get ahead of things soon.
12-07-2019, 10:39 AM
#2208
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,139
Originally Posted by pitchattitude
I think those are the bigger reason. The virtual bases may be something, but I think it would be more trouble than they would get. How many people actually live in a base that is served by an Envoy plane they fly? It doesn’t happen a lot, but what if they change the equipment or more likely, AAG changes that destination to another feeder? I’ve talked to one person at Envoy that lives in an outstation base that said he has spent nights at home on an overnight. As much as I think it would be great if it worked, I just don’t think there are many this would work for.
RAH does it as actual bases.... which Envoy would be smart to get ahead of the demand and do it sooner rather than later. Right now RAH is getting more pilots than they can train, with one of the longest upgrades in the industry and a pay scale that is about the same as Envoys, Endeavors and most of the better places. So what's different?
working conditions and not commuting. 13 bases vs 4.
The single biggest Quality of Life improvement is living in base.... doesn't matter what platform, forum, BBS, or system you use to ask.... that is the same answer from everybody; living in base makes it a different job completely. Use that as a recruiting and retention tool. Hotel costs are a tax deduction, labor costs aren't.
Envoy can address those and the cost savings from the mini-bases would make the improved work rules almost cost balanced.
Here endeth the free lessons for them. There's so much more that would save them money and attract more pilots, FA's and even mechanics.... but I'm not doing their work for them for free.
12-08-2019, 05:38 AM
#2210
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Position: Feeder of Amber
Posts: 229
Originally Posted by Cujo665
As I said, the union should use the negotiating capital wisely. Taking a current 4 day trip, and adding an extra operating flight on day one in the AM to the Hub from a mini-base, and adding an extra operating flight at the end from the Hub to the min-base increases utilization. Why crashpad or hotel crews in base, if you can just start them & release them at the outstation?
Figuring out a way to have multiple mini-bases closer to where people live increases QOL significantly. It would cost them nothing if they did it something like the old Aspen bids. Do it at six months instead of 3 month cycles.
It can help the company as much as the pilots if done correctly. fewer bodies floating around on wasted pre-positioned overnights; guys getting to start & finish their trips from home.
The could do it with just changing the bid line. It would save them money, but not as much as if they got a deal with the union for real mini-bases. The old jetbridge swap LOA was great for guys to swap at outstations if they both lived there. I believe that LOA is still in effect.
Building a commutable trip on both ends (afternoon start and morning finish) is the same type of trip that would work with an early AM DH to the outstation. By adding the two DH's which won't actually be used, they get to make that line to/from a mini-base and save the hotel, and a few prepositioned overnights a month. That reduces staffing and hotel requirements too.
Is doing something to help get rid of lost overnights a bad thing? It helps both sides.
Look at Republic. roughly the same size pilot group. They have 13 bases all over the country rather than just 4. It makes it much more likely that a guy can be home based, which is a huge huge QOL improvement. They have a waiting list of several months to get into class, yet their upgrade time is one of the longest in the regional industry now.... why is that? Yes, their pay is roughly the same now, but they have very good reserve rules, no junior manning and very very limited airport standby. The work rules and living in base obviously have a significant value to the employees. With the shortage about to get worse, they need to get ahead of things soon.
Figuring out a way to have multiple mini-bases closer to where people live increases QOL significantly. It would cost them nothing if they did it something like the old Aspen bids. Do it at six months instead of 3 month cycles.
It can help the company as much as the pilots if done correctly. fewer bodies floating around on wasted pre-positioned overnights; guys getting to start & finish their trips from home.
The could do it with just changing the bid line. It would save them money, but not as much as if they got a deal with the union for real mini-bases. The old jetbridge swap LOA was great for guys to swap at outstations if they both lived there. I believe that LOA is still in effect.
Building a commutable trip on both ends (afternoon start and morning finish) is the same type of trip that would work with an early AM DH to the outstation. By adding the two DH's which won't actually be used, they get to make that line to/from a mini-base and save the hotel, and a few prepositioned overnights a month. That reduces staffing and hotel requirements too.
Is doing something to help get rid of lost overnights a bad thing? It helps both sides.
Look at Republic. roughly the same size pilot group. They have 13 bases all over the country rather than just 4. It makes it much more likely that a guy can be home based, which is a huge huge QOL improvement. They have a waiting list of several months to get into class, yet their upgrade time is one of the longest in the regional industry now.... why is that? Yes, their pay is roughly the same now, but they have very good reserve rules, no junior manning and very very limited airport standby. The work rules and living in base obviously have a significant value to the employees. With the shortage about to get worse, they need to get ahead of things soon.
I understand the appeal of starting a trip from home but it’s only going to help the few people that commute from CMH, CMI, and XNA.
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