to the first part, yes. It already happens. We have military pilots skipping the line already and getting preferential interviews. So I don’t see how this is any different. Basically every military new hire now is in theory pushing us down one more number as we will never be able to get that spot.

In regards to the second, that happens now. I look at seniority as every single person hired ahead of me essentially is one more number down the list.

Yeah, but doesn’t that destroy the “allure” if any, of having a seniority number? If your number goes down with every military or street hire or WO guy/gal that gets out of sequence hired at the major, and up when every guy/gal at the WO gets hired at some other major, there isn’t any meaningful difference between what you got now and what you are proposing. What you are proposing is a distinction without a difference.

All you are really doing is putting lipstick on the existing pig and trying to convince people she is beautiful, yet nothing changes. you won’t go to mainline one minute quicker than you would have anyway and your alleged “seniority number” is actually written in smoke, and still progresses - up OR DOWN - only at the whim of mainline HR.

the assumption would be that street hires would go away and all new hires would come through the WO’s. This would all apply just to military. In addition it would keep pilots loyal to AA.

plus we are only talking seniority. We would all have the same contract, work rules, retirement etc.

What could be done is give credit for longevity at the WOs. That wouldn’t change seniority, but it WOULD give incentive to stay. Your pay and vacation would be based on hire date at the WO, but your seniority would be based on mainline.

Facing a possible systemwide pilot shortage, you expect management to GIVE UP THE ABILITY TO HIRE QUALIFIED NONMILITARY OTS? While guys at the WO can take early offers from other majors if they can get them? :eek:

What concessions are you willing to make on your next contract to get that? No, don’t even bother. The thirteenth amendment will stop them from making any deal they might otherwise be willing to make. :D

So you want to START at the WO as a nine year FO and be off the chart by the time you upgrade to captain. How desperate do you think they are? Remember, the purpose of the flow FROM THE MANAGEMENT PERSPECTIVE is TO STAFF THE WO because it’s cheaper than bringing that flying to mainline. So what you are proposing is that - except for the OTS guys - every guy that flows is going to cost mainline an extra $50 an hour over what a street hire would cost them?

You seriously believe that will fly with management? Really? And that they wouldn’t slow flow to a crawl to save money by hiring as many OTS from non WO regionals and the military as possible?

Management exists to make money for the stockholders, not to make their regional feed guys happy.

H€//, the existing pilot group wouldn’t allow them to negotiate that deal even if they wanted to - which they don’t - because the pilot group considers it a zero sum game, that any extra money given to flow guys comes out of money that would have otherwise gone to the group as a whole. You couldn’t even get a majority of the mainline pilots who CAME FROM WOs to vote for that deal.

Bizarre industry. We're supposed to have solidarity as labor vs. management & capital, but we're definitely fighting for a piece of the same pie and APA would garnish their 3.5 slices with our crumb if given a chance to vote on it.

Maybe that's just a rational market being rational. It makes me sad though.

One thing I know for sure though. Nothing will change for the better for anyone as long as there are butts in seats. Even if those butts can barely fly.

Wouldn’t necessarily have to be a one for one for pay, maybe even just the vacation, but the idea of starting seniority day one at a WO and jumping every OTS hire is even more unorthodox. But they will need to do SOMETHING to make the flow more attractive. I think most, besides the KoolAid swilling propaganda spewers, will agree something has to change from the current model.

Defeats the purpose of your get a seniority number day one at a WO.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can either give WO’s a seniority number at AA day one and destroy off the street hiring at AA. Or you can increase flow considerably.

They’re just going to end up increasing off the street hiring.

in regards to all the discussion, fair points to be had. I don’t claim to have all the answers but I do agree something needs to change and conversations like this help everyone wrap the brains around topics.

Anyway, good chat keep the ideas coming.