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The whole "paying your dues" argument is completely outdated and is just pilots putting themselves against each other because some more senior pilots think because they had horrible QOL and pay for a decade so everyone else should. Also for the requirement of being a CA for a year to flow somehow found its way into the CBA is just egregious, and completely goes against the spirit of USERRA. This is coming from someone who has no military experience and doesn't intend to, but what if a new 21yo FO gets drafted and his flow date comes up but he can't because he hasn't served for a year as captain? Really isn't fair at all. It could probably be challenged legally as well since USERRA clearly states a person should be given an advancedment opportunity based on the years they are with the company/where their peers are at. If guys in your new hire class flowed a year or two before you because you went off to war and came back, this completely goes against the "escalator principle" of USERRA. I'd love to see some military guys challenge it in court, which I believe there is come current arbitration going on via the union for this exact issue, but by the time that's up their new flow date will probably already be approaching. Federal law trumps any CBA, look at what happened at GoJet and their USERRA case. The company is already trying to withhold guys from flowing who were displaced as captain, which is completely opposite of what the CBA says is allowed.
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Originally Posted by MEGAFUPM
(Post 2899988)
The whole "paying your dues" argument is completely outdated and is just pilots putting themselves against each other because some more senior pilots think because they had horrible QOL and pay for a decade so everyone else should. Also for the requirement of being a CA for a year to flow somehow found its way into the CBA is just egregious, and completely goes against the spirit of USERRA. This is coming from someone who has no military experience and doesn't intend to, but what if a new 21yo FO gets drafted and his flow date comes up but he can't because he hasn't served for a year as captain? Really isn't fair at all. It could probably be challenged legally as well since USERRA clearly states a person should be given an advancedment opportunity based on the years they are with the company/where their peers are at. If guys in your new hire class flowed a year or two before you because you went off to war and came back, this completely goes against the "escalator principle" of USERRA. I'd love to see some military guys challenge it in court, which I believe there is come current arbitration going on via the union for this exact issue, but by the time that's up their new flow date will probably already be approaching. Federal law trumps any CBA, look at what happened at GoJet and their USERRA case. The company is already trying to withhold guys from flowing who were displaced as captain, which is completely opposite of what the CBA says is allowed.
Personally, I agree with you however the company felt otherwise. |
Originally Posted by Cyio
(Post 2900101)
It made its way into the CBA because there was a not so insignificant amount of pilots abusing the system. The system is there for those that do exactly what you stated however there were those that intentionally abused the rules and were not being deployed.
Personally, I agree with you however the company felt otherwise. “Escalator” Position 20 CFR 1002.192 The reemployment position with the highest priority in the reemployment schemes reflects the “escalator” principle that has been a key concept in federal veterans’ reemployment legislation. The escalator principle requires that each returning service member be reemployed in the position the person would have occupied with reasonable certainty if the person had remained continuously employed, with full seniority. The position may not necessarily be the same job the person previously held. For instance, if the person would have been promoted with reasonable certainty had the person not been absent, the person would be entitled to that promotion upon reinstatement. On the other hand, depending on economic circumstances, reorganizations, layoffs, etc., the position could be at a lower level than the one previously held, it could be a different job, or it could conceivably be in layoff status. In other words, the escalator can move up or down. |
Originally Posted by MEGAFUPM
(Post 2900179)
There will be abuse from both the company and pilot side for every single aspect of the CBA from whomever sees they can benefit from it. It just annoys me because I've seen multiple times guys on here put down military guys for taking orders and coming back to flow. It doesn't effect them, so why do they care? The CA requirement is just a way for the company to bandage their staffing issue. But again, I'd love to see some military guys come back from orders and challenge it. For context, here's the actual law which is pretty cut and dry.
“Escalator” Position 20 CFR 1002.192 The reemployment position with the highest priority in the reemployment schemes reflects the “escalator” principle that has been a key concept in federal veterans’ reemployment legislation. The escalator principle requires that each returning service member be reemployed in the position the person would have occupied with reasonable certainty if the person had remained continuously employed, with full seniority. The position may not necessarily be the same job the person previously held. For instance, if the person would have been promoted with reasonable certainty had the person not been absent, the person would be entitled to that promotion upon reinstatement. On the other hand, depending on economic circumstances, reorganizations, layoffs, etc., the position could be at a lower level than the one previously held, it could be a different job, or it could conceivably be in layoff status. In other words, the escalator can move up or down. What the company calls abuse is simply pilots availing themselves of opportunities secured them through the collective bargaining process. It’s not gaming the system or any such thing; it’s knowing your contract and using your knowledge to maximize your individual income or quality of life. The company does exactly the same thing trying to minimize the money they have to pay you while getting the most work from you.... Same applies in this case |
Originally Posted by MEGAFUPM
(Post 2900179)
There will be abuse from both the company and pilot side for every single aspect of the CBA from whomever sees they can benefit from it. It just annoys me because I've seen multiple times guys on here put down military guys for taking orders and coming back to flow. It doesn't effect them, so why do they care? The CA requirement is just a way for the company to bandage their staffing issue. But again, I'd love to see some military guys come back from orders and challenge it in federal court. For context, here's the actual law which is pretty cut and dry.
“Escalator” Position 20 CFR 1002.192 The reemployment position with the highest priority in the reemployment schemes reflects the “escalator” principle that has been a key concept in federal veterans’ reemployment legislation. The escalator principle requires that each returning service member be reemployed in the position the person would have occupied with reasonable certainty if the person had remained continuously employed, with full seniority. The position may not necessarily be the same job the person previously held. For instance, if the person would have been promoted with reasonable certainty had the person not been absent, the person would be entitled to that promotion upon reinstatement. On the other hand, depending on economic circumstances, reorganizations, layoffs, etc., the position could be at a lower level than the one previously held, it could be a different job, or it could conceivably be in layoff status. In other words, the escalator can move up or down. If you join our military to defend my rights I feel you should get every opportunity the rest of us do and not be penalized for serving your country. The company feels differently in this particular example. |
I’m sure this is really nothing having to do with mil orders, and more about folks who hide out at the top of the FO reserve list for years, while running their side gigs and waiting to flow. It’s just a way to get these people to start flying and take an upgrade.
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Originally Posted by CrowneVic
(Post 2900282)
I’m sure this is really nothing having to do with mil orders, and more about folks who hide out at the top of the FO reserve list for years, while running their side gigs and waiting to flow. It’s just a way to get these people to start flying and take an upgrade.
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Originally Posted by MEGAFUPM
(Post 2900354)
There's already an LOA for that. High time FOs that bid reserve purposely can be built/forced to fly a line instead in order to upgrade.
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Originally Posted by HalyardJammer
(Post 2900374)
Unless I'm mistaken that LOA expired around February 2019.
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Originally Posted by HalyardJammer
(Post 2900374)
Unless I'm mistaken that LOA expired around February 2019.
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