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Envoy Airlines Regional Airline

Envoy 2021: A New Hope

Old 01-02-2021, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ClappedOut145 View Post
Not just seats. APA scope does not allow anything to be operated by someone else if it has an MTOW of 86,000 lbs. The A220 would have to be re-certified as a new variant like the CRJ 550 was.
Not happening. MGTOW is something like 150K, waaay to much airplane to cap at 86K.
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Old 01-03-2021, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Not happening. MGTOW is something like 150K, waaay to much airplane to cap at 86K.
Eventually this will break one way or the other. Either regional lift will get a weight increase or it'll all be brought into mainline. The Embraer E2 aircraft are just too attractive from a fuel efficiency standpoint. Once fuel prices increase again (and they will) or carbon footprints become even more important (and they will) and demand increases (and it will), something will have to give one way or the other. I make no bets on which way the domino falls, except to say it WILL fall.
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Old 01-03-2021, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by pangolin View Post
Eventually this will break one way or the other. Either regional lift will get a weight increase or it'll all be brought into mainline. The Embraer E2 aircraft are just too attractive from a fuel efficiency standpoint. Once fuel prices increase again (and they will) or carbon footprints become even more important (and they will) and demand increases (and it will), something will have to give one way or the other. I make no bets on which way the domino falls, except to say it WILL fall.
The new emphasis of the carbon footprint definitely adds an interesting factor to the equation. Cost is still king, but if they can get some environmental PR at the same time, that is the path that they’ll take. The carbon footprint issue could also be another nail in the coffin for the 50 seaters. I don’t see the legacies relaxing scope, so where we go from here is anyone’s guess. Do the aircraft manufacturers come up with an efficient plane that meets the weight limits, or does the industry shift towards larger more efficient aircraft operated at the legacies? Time to watch another swing of the pendulum.
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Old 01-03-2021, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by coodrough568 View Post
we don’t want them relaxing scope. Also I see AA and any other legacy that owns current 175s running them like AA is doing the 140s. Until they have been long paid off. There is zero chance AA, which is capped on 76 seaters to start parking current 175s and getting E2’s. By the time they could even afford that the E2 will be outdated. Maybe when the E3’s come out... but like I mentioned, we want tighter scope not more relaxed.
What we want often has little to do with what we get. But this is soon to be at a tipping point.
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Old 01-03-2021, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by coodrough568 View Post
mainline pilots don’t want to relax scope either. Only management. Depends what they offer/threaten to take away if they don’t agree to relax scope. But that’s not even being negotiated right now
Agree 100%, relaxing scope would just further doom us all to longer regional careers.
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Old 01-03-2021, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cyio View Post
Agree 100%, relaxing scope would just further doom us all to longer regional careers.
Scope isn’t going to get relaxed. The bulk of the seniority list of any legacy is made up of people who rode out the lost decade either stagnate or furloughed while watching the regionals expand, or those who were stuck at the regionals with nowhere to go. The 76 seaters are scoped out and as the 50 seaters age and get phased out, the only currently available replacement option is higher paying legacy jobs. The other side of the coin is that more regional jobs will be lost than those created at the legacies, so the transition won’t be fun for everyone.
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Old 01-03-2021, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Hedley View Post
Scope isn’t going to get relaxed. The bulk of the seniority list of any legacy is made up of people who rode out the lost decade either stagnate or furloughed while watching the regionals expand, or those who were stuck at the regionals with nowhere to go. The 76 seaters are scoped out and as the 50 seaters age and get phased out, the only currently available replacement option is higher paying legacy jobs. The other side of the coin is that more regional jobs will be lost than those created at the legacies, so the transition won’t be fun for everyone.
I’m currently employed at a “legacy”, you’re talking straight out of your a$$. Scope relief will be negotiated to the benefit of both parties. Management keeps everything tight lipped at DL, but if relief isn’t dealt with accordingly they’ll pull a UA move and dance around the agreement as they have on multiple occasions in the past. Personally as a commuter I’d personally hope to never sit in an RJ200 again. Ed said the 50 seater is dead, probably means as we speak that statement is being negotiated between ALPA and Management.
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Old 01-03-2021, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Finessed View Post
I’m currently employed at a “legacy”, you’re talking straight out of your a$$. Scope relief will be negotiated to the benefit of both parties. Management keeps everything tight lipped at DL, but if relief isn’t dealt with accordingly they’ll pull a UA move and dance around the agreement as they have on multiple occasions in the past. Personally as a commuter I’d personally hope to never sit in an RJ200 again. Ed said the 50 seater is dead, probably means as we speak that statement is being negotiated between ALPA and Management.
I’m fairly senior at a legacy. I don’t know about Delta, but our union wants to only tighten scope. The company came to us with the offer for more pay and additional current NB aircraft orders rather than the requirement to buy another fleet type in exchange for more rj’s. We told them to pound sand. Scope is the big issue that held up our contract negotiations before COVID hit. On the 777, most everyone was too senior to be negatively affected by allowing more rj’s, but here the practically unanimous concessions was that the company doesn’t get one more big rj unless they buy another fleet type, or if we fly them. At Delta, the 50 seater is dead and the company has a better product due to the additional 175’s that were allowed from bringing on the 717, and now the far superior A220. As our 50 seaters go away, Kirby can either replace that with additional 737/320’s, or buy another fleet type and unlock additional 76 seaters just like Delta did. He has his options, he doesn’t like them, but we are not negotiating relaxing scope.
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Old 01-03-2021, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Hedley View Post
I’m fairly senior at a legacy. I don’t know about Delta, but our union wants to only tighten scope. The company came to us with the offer for more pay and additional current NB aircraft orders rather than the requirement to buy another fleet type in exchange for more rj’s. We told them to pound sand. Scope is the big issue that held up our contract negotiations before COVID hit. On the 777, most everyone was too senior to be negatively affected by allowing more rj’s, but here the practically unanimous concessions was that the company doesn’t get one more big rj unless they buy another fleet type, or if we fly them. At Delta, the 50 seater is dead and the company has a better product due to the additional 175’s that were allowed from bringing on the 717, and now the far superior A220. As our 50 seaters go away, Kirby can either replace that with additional 737/320’s, or buy another fleet type and unlock additional 76 seaters just like Delta did. He has his options, he doesn’t like them, but we are not negotiating relaxing scope.
Just talking out of my ass here but what new NB would qualify that would work? Airbus can’t build enough 220s.
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Old 01-03-2021, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pangolin View Post
Just talking out of my ass here but what new NB would qualify that would work? Airbus can’t build enough 220s.
Here’s the contract definition:

“New Small Narrowbody Aircraft” means a CS100, E190, or E195 aircraft, provided that such aircraft is neither in the company fleet as of the date of this signing of this agreement no acquired through merger or acquisition of another carrier..

United can wait in line for the 220, or possibly the 195 E2. I really don’t know how long the backlog is on anything is since every manufacturer has faced cancellations and delays. Even if the company were to go with something that doesn’t qualify such as the Max 7, I have no idea when the delivery dates would be. My guess is that the shortest delivery schedule would come from the E195 E2??
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