If course it’s not perfect here. Of course there are a lot of improvements to make. But we’re a regional, we are a cost-effective way to fly smaller planes for a mainline carrier, that results in a lower QOL than a legacy or major airline.

I’ve had the privilege of working for crappy companies doing crappy jobs and let me tell you: DTS’ing 3 weeks at a time off for vacation, great vision and dental (to me at least), 4 on 3 off, making pay band C, company matching in my 401K (most of the time ;)… It’s a long way from miserable.

No, we mustn’t accept economic related reasons for poor performance from mgmt. when there is no economic benefit from bothering us. The abusive MA’s, coach & counsels, and using every technicality to try to curtail pilots careers is unnecessary and harms everyone - including Envoy/AA’s bottom line.

And even that $7.25 an hour minimum wage is going up to $17.64 an hour in West Hollywood, California. My understanding is automation is coming to fast food. Flipping burgers does not have enough value added. So, there will be a lot of minimally skilled people unemployed at that pay rate.

Well just have Congress approve single pilot 121 operations on planes that have automation (aka autoland). Worst case scenario if something happens to the pilot, ATC can tell the F/A how to program the autoland. End of story. Pilot shortage resolved.

I’ve now read enough of your posts to confirm you’re a massive idiot.

Goodnight.

Holy ****... you and I agree about something.

Not worth the energy to even refute what’s wrong with this thought.

divide your pay by TAFB. Most folks are paid for their time away from home. Firefighters are paid to sleep unless called. It's all a matter of perspective. If the FO pay comes out to over $15 an hour by TAFB I'd be surprised. It used to be the number you cited by the way.... so as poorly as the place is run, it's still light year better than before and right after the bankruptcy

Are there worse regionals out there to be at; absolutely.... however, they aren't part of a global corporation either. Most are shoestring operations and until 5-9 years ago were still checking airport monitors for their planes arrival time and were calling in their OOOI times. There "should" be an advantage to working for the largest airline in the world (and they only get to say that when including the regional feed).

Frankly, nobody there should be happy with it as is. Once you're out of the regionals you will look back and realize how poorly you were treated comparatively.

Sadly, it won't change. Not until management wants it to. No regional airline union under the RLA can force anything; it's too easy to just give the flying to PSA. We all learned the hard way that somebody will raise their hand to work for less if it means more planes and more upgrades.... in spite of a dozen other pilot unions voting no; somebody will say yes.... and ALPA can't stop it.
Knowing that's the reality of the situation, you fight for what you can, when you can.

Of the choices facing brand new pilots looking to break into the industry, I tell them to focus on wholly owned first in this order: Endeavor, Envoy, PSA, PDT, Horizon, then to vendors like Republic/Skywest. Mesa is okay too and will survive the shortage because they are expanding into ACMI, but definitely not a high pick. All vendors will shrink with stagnation. The AA three WO will eventually be consolidated. Gojet, Air Wiskey, Commutair are all fodder for bankruptcies and mergers. That means lots of stagnation and downgrading in the process.

Envoy’s flow to mainline is no longer attractive. That’s all.

One thing working here has taught me is AAG is is not longer attractive.

^^^^^ This x100

Wonder how many sick calls AAG pilots get before the company starts trying to "manage them out."

How long after your captains board date did you hear back or did you have to go pound on the door lol.


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Took about 3-4 weeks for me. Some people heard next day. It's essential that you embrace chaos and learn to just go with the flow if you want to survive working here without turning into that crazy guy people call in sick to avoid.

Hell, I can’t even get a call back about an FO slot and I’m typed in both airplanes. Does Envoy have a blackball list or something? I must be on that one!!

This place is actively self-destructing bro. We are cancelling flights every day because we can't staff them. We can't train people because United has hired all our check airmen. They're doing you a favor.

give the guy a break, maybe United is his goal

Post of the day, and it's still early.

Attrition is at 93 pilots this month, only 20 of them being flow. Fly the friendly skies.

looks like the SCC will likely be extended. Some would argue more permanent fixes to QOL pay etc.. but with the way things are might as well get that OT while you get the call. I guess unless you’re flowing in the next few months, theres no incentive or benefit to stick around.

Just my take: people aren’t leaving because of poor pay and QOL. People are leaving because they’re getting hired at United and Delta and everywhere else. Envoy is never going to match pay/QOL of legacy and LCCs. There is nothing Envoy can do except try to get more bodies in the front door and train/upgrade them as fast as they can.

Could be difficult to achieve, if people aren’t lined up to be here.

I do believe people wouldnt be so eager to leave if some of these things were better, specially reserve rules or not getting paid to sit in a hotel in shreveport for 24 hours doing nothing.

The lost days are only something that AAG can fix, not ENY. GIGO- Garbage in, garbage out. As long as AAG is spreading flying around to different fleets and companies, Envoy can’t optimize trips. The WOs will always get the short end of this stick in this respect.

But by the same token, as was pointed out, even with the best flight file, there is no regional that can compete with any ULLC/LLC, major or legacy.

how many pilots are there? APC says there are 2400 (info could be dated) but if 95 leave every month, that means they would loose almost 2400 in 2 years. I know they replace/hire every month also, but at that rate a new hire today could be at the top of the list in 2 years?

If 95 leave every month, the airline won’t last 2 years.

You'll be at the top of the unemployment line in 6 months when there are no captains

You are making the assumption that people are leaving when they get to the top of the list. Some only last six or twelve months. Some don’t make it through training and some quit after getting that recency box checked. Those have to be replaced several times in that time period, so, no, you won’t ever move up that fast.

Envoy obviously isn't going to match mainline rates. They'll either staple us or fire us all, move the flying to mainline, and close the shop if it comes to that.

There's a lot they could do, though. Plenty of regionals have stuff in their contracts that compensate fairly for wasted time such as sits or lost days or inefficient low credit days - we're on a punitive contract that is intentionally miserable to the pilots, forced on those that preceded us under threat of mass termination.

They could also stop being such petty jerks about attendance, based on the tone of crew room grousing that would do a lot to help morale.

They won't do anything though until it's a dire emergency and they've junior manned every single pilot to the absolute limit. That's the Envoy way.

Being treated like an adult is worth a lot. Unfortunately the mental midgets, RW, RN and especially JE do not understand this (because they are such retards).

Even little improvements like call first/call last list on reserve, JE said it is too complicated and they can never make it work. Even when it was suggested they could just use the turnback list for it. No, too complicated, can't do it.

If they just would understand that you can be cheap, but treat your people well, a lot more pilots would stay. They just do not have the mental capacity to ever understand that. Shame really.

If your recruiters info is to be believed, then they are lining up out the door and down Regent Blvd. One comment that was particularly funny; "Guys are literally flinging themselves at Envoy because of the guaranteed position at AA."

They’ve been doing this for so long that just the thought of doing things differently stresses them out because they don't know a different way, this is what they're comfortable with and this is what they know.

In order to grow and evolve you need to change/adapt and that just wont happen unless there are changes in management core.

Fortunately the market on its own is teaching some lessons.

This has always been their line - project strength because people don’t want to work somewhere that has issues. The number of recruits is down and the quality is WAY down. Many people with unsuitable dispositions to be FOs much less captains are getting offers right now.

It remains to be seen where all this leads but an LCA recently told me the answer is a smoking hole in the ground, sooner or later.

Well, of course they are. This is the same people claiming a five year flow and $180K plus new hire bonus.

It will be interesting to see how many, if any, they get that are anywhere near the time to be DECs. Just don’t see anywhere people could be coming from that would be worth leaving ANY seniority behind. Maybe a few that have been out of the game for a while and have some dusty hours that can be counted.

Perhaps they should read the book they sent. Management here fails to understand the leadership vs management concept. The carrot and stick is all their small minds can grasp

Well, of course they are. This is the same people claiming a five year flow and $180K plus new hire bonus.

It will be interesting to see how many, if any, they get that are anywhere near the time to be DECs. Just don’t see anywhere people could be coming from that would be worth leaving ANY seniority behind. Maybe a few that have been out of the game for a while and have some dusty hours that can be counted.

No ... expanding

FO's are pretty much a renewable resource and, assuming infinite capacity to recruit and train, can be replaced over and over and over again with no fundamental threat to the system. Captains and LCA's however, pretty much have to be grown in house. Yes DEC's are a thing but there's not a huge supply of regional applicants with upgrade mins.

So you need FO's to stick around until they upgrade. And then you need the new captains to stick around long enough to fly 1000 hours with their replacement. And you need a subset of those people to stay as LCA's. And you need a decent number of captains and FO's to sit around doing nothing on reserve (ie not getting closer to 1000 hours). You can make various assumptions, but more or less you need the average new hire to stay 4-5 years.

Current situation sounds like 50% annualized turnover, call that 66% turnover for captains. Flight hours will shrink to the captain supply. Captain supply will shrink to the sim/lca supply. And lca supply will shrink to the extent they bother to fill out an application anywhere else.

100% turnover in 24 months, as noted, is rapid progression to unemployment.

Envoy have been selling flow now for more years than I count. Back in SJU in early 2000 time, they telling everyone 5 year flow to AA. Same book of play today but different caracters calling plays.
Many many guys buy into this flow nonsense and go to Envoy for wrong reasons. It might be time where they can not get pilot anymore and have big problem.

Question... Does Envoy allow new hires to train on IPT's (touch screen cockpits) alone, without an instructor? How many IPT's are there in the training center

No.

Not sure how many they have now, but have to have an instructor present. Not even upgrades can play without adult supervision.