very stupid but whatever. What about air Wisconsin?

so you heard the same info.

The only conflict that I see is disagreement with each others "facts". The fact is, this forum requires tolerating others. I mean.......I have to tolerate the mindless blather of people like Skyvector or a slew of other salesmen from the Envoy ranks clearly selling Envoy here with fluffed up "facts" and even outright fabrications for no other purpose but to grease their own path forward (or cushion their potential fall), so we all must be strong.

Disengagement approved.

Are satellite bases designed to become long-term permanent or do they just serve a temporary purpose without the requirement to commit a large amount of resources ?

If it is the latter, what is the message there ?

The AA regional network is simply in a state of transition. The pilots shortage has forced AAG to make some unplanned changes, but the future plan hasn't changed. The clues are there, one just needs to look for them without letting their own "facts" cloud their vision.

Some are and some clearly are not doing that. Another clue ?

The 824 is being accelerated a bit to ensure that arbitrated situation is no longer in play at future point X. Was it a coincidence the AA/LUS merger was consummated on December 9, 2013 just days AFTER the last Letter 3 flow and the beginning of street hiring/824 flow at AA ?

Perhaps I am simply just "out of touch" with the situation as another claims though ?

Yes, probably.

the compass flying thats 'coming back' in 2020?

Protected Pilots are also part of an arbitrated award. They really can't mess with either group.

Not sure about that:
824 = arbitration
Protected pilots = settlement
After protected pilots and new hires = contract
I think that's how it goes, not sure. Most agree that the only ones that are "safe" are the 824, beyond that, who the hell knows

Really? Thats news to me.



Good Luck!

That is my understanding. Parker seems really sure that he can entice regional pilots to his wholly owned by the flow, over having to increase pay. I would be surprised if he messed with it. Seems like his holy grail solution to the shortage of pilots willing to work for janitor wages. Its also a way to ensure that his most expensive pilots leave first. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe he would do it out the of kindness of his heart. I think he just sees it as a cheaper solution. Nice thing about the flow, you can still apply at Delta, United, Spirit, JetBlue, Atlas etc etc all you want. Just because you are waiting in line doesn't mean you can't take other opportunities as they come along. About half of the envoy pilots I talk to feel this way. They are not just sitting around waiting on the flow but its nice to have in the event that all else fails.

Perhaps the Cuj himself can clarify that since he is part of the protected pilots.



Good Luck!

From Jetnet....As Envoy prepares to welcome 40 new Embraer 175 (E175) aircraft to our fleet, we’re looking for the best-trained professionals available to provide safe, reliable and courteous service to American’s customers. Earn an extra $1,000 for referring pilots to Envoy, where they’ll have an unmatched opportunity to flow-through to American and continue their aviation career. The process is simple: 1) fill out an online form for a qualified applicant who has not already begun the recruitment process; and 2) if that pilot gets hired, passes training and stays with the company six months, you get paid. American and US Airways employees are also encouraged to refer pilots to any of AAG’s wholly owned regional carriers and earn a bonus. Refer a pilot today!

In the end its about $400.00 after taxes and ALPA's cut.

Good Luck!

Okay...what does that have to do with the compass flying?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Siwwy piwot. :rolleyes:

Yes, many not in the 824 pilot group which is a defined arbitral award as opposed to the "protected pilots" which are essentially at the whim of a Collective Bargaining Agreement think they are Golden.

They are not. Several scenarios can result in that provision being either diluted or eliminated. I don't see elimination, but I do see dilution as a result of consolidation to include other pilots not presently part of Envoy. The path to Utopia will almost certainly be far slower then many believe.

If you want to continue on the path of being a Regional FO forever. Go ahead. Their situation and upgrade time is worse than ours. There is a reason they pay that extra bonus money. It's because you will never upgrade and nobody in their right mind would go there without it.

Not that much of a pay difference for the first yr anyway. You'll go from going on 3rd yr pay here to $25/hr again plus the bonus, which who knows how long that will last.. You give up 2 years of seniority to go to the very bottom of another crappy unstable company with Lifer RSVs like we have?

Why would you do that to yourself? Go to someplace with actual career progression or just stay here, keep applying upwards, keep flow in back pocket.. things are moving, not that fast but still way better than Endeavor..

You're forgetting the part where the settlement includes the language "on property". If a merger of groups were to happen the language is good ammunition if they tried including others into that category.

Exactly. ^^^

Your primary error is assuming a transaction of that sort would be structured as a "merger". In fact, it could be represented as something else simply to get capitulation from a union leadership known for taking "the best of two bad choices". For any consolidation of wholly-owned AAG regional pilot groups, there can really be no special treatment for some vs. others and all new contractual provisions would have to apply to all. Thus, once an SLI occurred, all pilots would have a flow benefit based on their NEW seniority and not the fact they once had X expectations based on a former CBA, which almost certainly means dilution for present Envoy pilots in that situation.

Additionally, the flow itself would likely be altered to be more realistic metrics considering the almost certain further uncontrolled contraction of the regional airline segment due to forces airline management simply will be unable to change. That also means likely slowing of the process. That is why this whole "2.5/6" nonsense is really all just a Pollyanna position. Realistically, a new recruit at Envoy or any other AAG regional will have a MUCH longer wait then the present promises imply despite the trumpeting of a certain Envoy ALPA rep and others who should know better, but have deluded themselves for various reasons willingly and unwillingly........

....like this guy. ^^^ :cool:

So, what ya'll saying is, mgmt played you like a fiddle. Your now recovering the flying you lost because you took the concessions they wanted?

For the love of God, man...YOU'RE

Nope, because others cannot do the flying and we are overstaffed.

Is that right? Did they slap you on the back from the JS and say we need real pilots to fly this route. Yep, un huh, we jus gonna let dem PSA boys keep tugging on themselves, while you and Earl here show em how its really done.

If you have dealt with the FAA have as long as you claim to have you would know that they are the biggest CYAs ever.
PSA mgmt is up to their eyeballs now in projects, like ipads, constant rate descents from non-precisions and LPV approaches. Acknowledging that a company is task saturated in projects and allowing your other company to continue on, is not telling them to pi ss up a rope.
Regarding the FAA, their chief concern is and always will be paper work. Manuals, procedures, training documentation, checking the boxes, if you will.

No you are not. If that was the case, then why they don't increase the flow? Oh thats right, Forgot about the % crap that your leader Cuj is yapping.


Good Luck!

So are you guys stealing envoy's ASE training program too?


Good Luck!

Your entire post is full of "Wat!?!" but this stands out. Your opinion is so full of suppositions I don't even know where to start. Are you seeking to apply the McCaskill-Bond act to this situation? Don't forget it works both ways and the Act has never had to deal with an arbitrated seniority award before, it is unprecedented and in all likelihood the 824 would remain unchanged.

Currently airlines facing SLI post-Act are using fences, DOH and blending techniques to get SLI to work. Like UAL/CAL. Not perfect, but the Act was designed to prevent Staple And Furlough thanks to AA's SOP of treating acquisitions like crap, in this case the precipitating event was the TWA buyout.

They can spout off "based on expected career progression" all they want, but there is abso-f'n-lutely no way a 2 year FO in upgrade class is going to leap ahead of a 10 year FO 25 numbers away from upgrade at a stagnating airline. This has not happened at any airline post-Act. This is why SLI's are quietly done by the company and unions during negotiations, and they expressly try to prevent situations like this because neither want to be mired in lawsuits and grievances for the next decade.

If anything, each respective regional would hold on to their own flow and be awarded flow opportunities based on their previous seniority list (unless contractually provided, then it's all up for negotiation in a new CBA) while bidding and combined list seniority would have fences and/or some sort of blending as needed.

October classes
 

Anyone get a call for the early October class yet? If so, when is the class? Thanks

Do you even know what McCaskill-Bond is ? I made no reference to that, nor did my points involve it, so what orifice you yanked that from, God only knows. Yes, the 824 was the result of an arbitration (of which I have a copy BTW), but once that is completed, all bets are off.

You REALLY should do more due diligence when making an argument. :cool:

SLI's are about integrating seniority, NOT about altering negotiated contractual provisions. If you think the PPA is bullet proof, you're fooling yourself. The contractual provisions I'm talking about regarding flow-thru modifications in all likelihood will be willingly accepted by the respective unions to ensure a smooth and harmonious integration of which will be demanded of them if they want to play ball. The other factor I mentioned has nothing to do with integrations, contracts or arbitrations, it is a landscape function of supply and demand. The landscape will inevitably change (again :cool:) and those who aren't interested in playing ball can easily be strong-armed out of the game or until they cry "uncle", whichever occurs first.

In fact, Envoy ALPA has ALREADY cried uncle since their initial hard stand of no concessions and in fact, their new Comm chair is leading the "cooperate and graduate" parade only in reverse for Envoy pilots to get a do-over. I think you are really quite naïve in considering the future. Hundreds, if not thousands of regional pilots before you have both made the same mistake and failed to learn from the past and so in all likelihood will you take your seat in that stadium when the time comes.

I'll be the guy over by the popcorn stand munching away and sipping a beer when that occurs. ;)

Protected pilots are not contractual. Sorry...try again.

Now everything else, yes...but 824 and protected pilots cannot be changed.

The provisions regarding the Preferential Hiring Agreement between the parties to move 824 Eagle (Envoy) pilots was as a result of Arbitration FLO-0108 under George Nicolau. This arbitration included no other provisions for any other pilots. After that, the parties (namely ALPA and both AMR and Eagle management) met to craft the PPA Agreement. My understanding is that this agreement was NOT an arbitral award, but an agreement outside of that prior to the completion of the arbitration and the arbitrator having to make a legal award and as such is contractual and not legal. It was NOT an award by an arbitrator and there is a distinct difference.

At any rate, as I stated that in a consolidation scenario which can be in several forms, willing agreement is what will be sought and almost certainly occur from the various MEC's. Pay to play or be pushed aside.

Do you think present whipsawing was the ONLY reason to shrink Envoy and make them an equal sized partner in the trio of wholly-owneds while the other two were being built up ?

The primary error was the belief they could build the other two while shrinking Envoy fast enough without teething pains. That has not panned out to their expectations and thus the temporary stop-gap moves of reshuffling some flying back to Envoy who PRESENTLY can handle that flying.

You didn't mention it, but you used phraseology that implied that this is the solution. The Act is the only thing that requires that "no special treatment" be the rule, otherwise anything and everything is up for grabs, including a staple. The Act prevents that and is the only thing preventing a staple other than management "kindness" and what can be negotiated.

Apparently you unwittingly paraphrased the intent of the act in order to sound like your position was based on legal precedent, but I apologize. I was wrong. You just made it all up to sound like you knew what you were talking about.

Regardless, I have read much of the summarized Act and people always refer to "based on career expectation" as a reason for a junior crew member who might be say, holding a line, should be placed on a combined list ahead of a more senior pilot who is still on reserve, or jump in a flow queue ahead of someone else. The Act is much more complex than that and covers special circumstances (likely the 824 and possibly protected pilots would fall under this), longevity, category and status, so anyone thinking that simply shuffling non-Envoy pilots into a Envoy seniority list is going to disrupt these items needs to take a step back. However, the reverse is true, and if a merged carrier had a flow of their own ENY pilots may not be allowed to participate or take cuts.

TL;DR: Get a grip and don't listen to Eaglefly's predictions about seniority list integration between a fictional ENY/XXX merger because he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Here........
First it was 170 flows
Then it was 240 flows
Now it's 300 flows

220 upgrades drops it just shy of the 2011 hires.....

Sorry Eaglefly and RJ; but this next generation hit it right and isn't going to be stuck in regionals for decades. Sucks to be you guys I guess.

You keep using the term "Act" or "The Act" ?

What on God's earth are you babbling about ?

It seems you may again be referring to The McCaskill-Bond Amendment, (or statute) and if so, it is YOU that is absolutely clueless. Go read it.

That Amendments legislation born of the AA-TWA consolidation is a labor-protective provision enacted to define a methodology whereby two parties (airline) in a "covered transaction" agree to integrate seniority lists by provisions stipulated in as per Allegheny-Mohawk sections 3 and 13. Section 3 describes a process of negotiation and if no agreement, section 13 provides for binding arbitration to settle the matter. That's it. It is in place to ensure a fair PROCESS, but makes no guarantees about a fair OUTCOME. What is a "covered transaction" ?

In a nutshell, that requires at least 50% transfer of the value, equity or assets of a carrier to another. News flash kid..............there are multiple abilities for AAG to strong-arm Envoy (or any other AAG regional) into capitulation to ensure a seamless integration of equality. What will Envoy look like when the last of the 824 go in perhaps 12-18 months depending on how aggressive AAG is about the timieline for whatever their plan ?

That's right, 40 E-175's (some not even on line yet) and a boatload of expendable 50-seaters. Suppose for example (and this is just ONE example), they offer your MEC two options.......A. agree to dilute YOUR flow provisions to include pilots from proposed integration carrier X for a complete merge or B. face the transfer of your E-175's including presently qualified pilots (somewhat like the old PAN Am did) and the liquidation of the remaining fleet and assets with only an offer of employment for the remainder of the unqualified pilots ?

Which do you want............bad or worse ?

You can be sure what your MEC will do. ;)

Think that's far-fetched ?

Think again pal and that is simply ONE possible scenario available to AAG and guess what..........that would NOT covered by McCaskill-Bond.

You psycho-babble above is irrelevant and by thoughtlessly belching that, it tells me you are WAY out of your league in having a solid handle on what your future may hold. Stop thinking like you got it all figured out before you get blind-sided .............again. :cool: It is my suggestion that anyone predicating their future at an AAG regional NOT listen to the irrelevant claims and information provided by the clearly misguided and uninformed.......unless that is, you also have no problem taking your seat in the bumpy ride of past history as well.

LOL !

I always shake my head at those confident of spending money that is not in their hand, but promised to be enroute in the mail. Even worse, to see those who convince others their check too from the same place is also in the mail and to breathe easy. :rolleyes: Obviously, you have no interest in the past history of the entity whose both signature and promises are also on and tied to your enroute check, for if you did, you'd be FAR more cautious about whooping it up with your reckless spending and assurances to others of good times that cannot fail.

Keep trying to kick that football Charlie Brown, Lucy (and me) are having a ball ! :D

Here you are blathering on about assets when the original discussion was about seniority lists. Your blathering about assets completely sidesteps discussing the provisions I paraphrased from the MBA, one does not relieve you of the other, but if it makes you feel better to talk about how there is no other course of action than for everything to go to hell in a hand skeet, suit yourself.

Keep changing the subject instead of the discussing the original topic.

Here you go..........says the Cuj. After all, the company typed it up and published, it's written in stone right? In this month's edition of Aero Crew News is a nice fluff piece about Eaglevoy. CAPTAIN Ric Wilson is quoted as saying 2.5/6 is on the way.

The Cuj talks like 220 more upgrades will get them into 2011 hires. That's true, however the latest bid award is the only FACT you have to go from and it shows the most junior CA in the company awarded with seniority of 7 years and 11 months. Where's the much touted 2.5/6? I agree that it's not 8/16 anymore. It's 7.9/15.8.

I'm sorry, Eaglevoy management is just feeding you guys yet another line of bull***t along with an even larger helping of sunshine and rainbows. The Cuj is just pouring it on thick and selling it up like a greasy, oily hair used car salesman.

I learned to never believe their crap or trust them in my years there. Eff the flow. I went looking elsewhere and fortunately was able to bail. Others haven't been so lucky.

That's because the "provisions" you babble about are not only non-existant in M-B, they are essentially irrelevant (perhaps except in your own confused mind) under the likely scenario. Jesus..........gotta be ADD..........simply gotta be. No other explanation. M-B does not define integration methods. ALPA merger policy does, but again, the point of mentioning "assets" is that to force yours or another union to play ball, M-B can be sidestepped as no "merger" occurs, but instead an "asset acquisition with an offer of employment" (see AA/TWA for which M-B was a byproduct of).

Oh what's the use...............you sound hopeless and there is always those who never make it out and are casualties of their own making. A chair of history has your name on it and is waiting. You can (and will) check in, but obviously you'll not be among the ones checking out.

My condolences in advance. :cool:

Sounds like you are just trying to make yourself feel better about the decision.

So far, the only thing that you and eaglefly have to offer in opposition to Wilson's announcement is, "Things Change" and "It hasn't worked in the past." Fact of the matter is for the last 4 years, the flow has been working. I would have liked to see higher numbers, yes but the fact is, over 600 envoy pilots have flowed to AA in the last 4 years. Parker has publically stated that his plan to staff the regionals is by offering the flow. So far, he has done everything that he said he would in that regard. Since he has said that is his plan and he is acting in accord with that plan, I would say the likelihood of 300 envoy pilots flowing next year is a lot more certain than not.