Funny how you guys moan about Team Tony, but in reality, thanks to him there is "movement" now because of the 824 and MAYBE the protected pilots. Yes, in the end he was looking only for himself similar to the Cuj of today with his NY antics....

Maybe its the NY water after all.......


Good Luck!

Im not one of those who complains about "Team Tony". Notice I didn't even use that term. He did accomplish quite a bit for this pilot group, including the flow as you mentioned. I even dare say he accomplished more than the regime in power during 2013/2014.

I'm speaking specifically in regards to the 2012 contract. It was a horrible contract and it was signed with the wrong company. As MEC members they knew better than most how imminent a merger was and should have advised this pilot group to vote accordingly. They didn't.

No, it never said which ones or how many. Tom Horton used the award as a wedge to get what he wanted. AAG has way more Ejet options out there awarded than can ever be executed. To say those hulls were definately coming here is just simply not accurate.

The order for them couldn't even be placed while in bankruptcy without getting UCC permission. RAH ordering them themselves allowed AMR/AAG to get delivery and into operation faster.

"could" those have gone to EagleVoy.... probably, but we'll never really know. Like the CR9's... could they have gone to EagleVoy; sure but it made more sense to use them to beat us down with and then give them to PSA anyway.

Like I said, there are enough options for hulls around that those 47 birds aren't an issue anyway for anybody watching the bigger picture. The vendors (and us) can't execute all the options that AAG spread around. AAG just has to sit back and watch which regional will have the pilots to fly the extra planes. Whomever that is, will get their options executed.

There's no reason to get upset with any RAH pilot. There's more hulls available out there from the paper options than can possibly be converted into hulls on the ramps.

The delay is because there were other things to negotiate first. Then when it did come, it was not something that would pass and MEC vote, let alone a pilot vote. It got sent back with a list of must haves and progress is being made. If we get an agreement that is a gain for our pilots we'll consider it.

If you have other information, I'd like to hear it since I was there in the room when it all happened and didn't see any GV drivers there.

Then he might have been there after all, considering he is likely not a GV driver. Did you happen to spot any folks clad in bath robes and slippers typing frantically on their laptop?

It's critical to note that this litmus can change drastically over a fairly short period of time. 12-18 months from now despite Envoy's present staffing situation or any efforts Envoy management makes to maintain that, Envoy could be in no different a position that AAG regional X is in right now. I don't think Parker is going to commit anything to anyone beyond that timeframe and thus Envoy management will have limited ability to feather your nest in other than temporary offerings.

The moves and language surrounding recent Envoy candy canes supports that the present Christmas at Envoy may only be a seasonal event and no single AAG regional will have a permanent present under the tree, but must periodically share the presents of upgrades, flow and compensation depending on their willingness to agree not to pi$$ on Santa's lap and be the one to have the elves necessary at the time.

I see a lot of future shuffling of resources among carriers and consolidation of the in-house carriers so that AAG regional pilots will forever be chasing a mythical man with a white beard.

You mean, besides Cujo himself?

Meanwhile back in the world, the Chinese locomotive is wheezing. Europe, Latin America and Australia are sneezing, as the FED contemplates a rate hike. All those intern'l AAG pax seats and who will fill them ?

So that is your argument? Things can change. In that case, I'd like to offer another ridiculous argument that the physical laws governing lift may also cease to exist and THEN WE'LL ALL BE OUT OF A JOB! Of course things can change. That would be the case at any carrier in any situation.


Given that fact that the title of this threat is about 100% of the newhires at AA will come from the wholly owned carriers. The point of Cujo's arguments is that as it becomes harder to attract pilots to envoy, the company will use new equipment (growth) and flow (movement and long term career progression) as an incentive to attract new blood to their regional carriers. AA can offer whatever it needs to in order to keep the newhires coming that the likes of SKW, RAH, XJet etc cannot.

So yes, things can change but I think they will only change for the better for a regional carriers whose parent company has everything to gain by changing things in their favor. The CEO of that company having already stated that they will do just that, helps as well. In fact, in his words, "The quickest way to get to AA will be through envoy." While I will concede that they could better implement this program, the fact remains that envoy have consistently flowed envoy pilots over to AA for the last few years. In the last 24 months, that flow has gone from 20+ year envoy pilots, to currently at 16 year pilots, with it speculated to be at 12 years by the end of next year. If this trend continues, one can easily calculate how long it will take for a new hire today to flow. I don't agree with the current projections by the Director of Flight Ops to be at 6 years, I do believe that if he really wants that to be the case, he can MAKE that happen. (That is where being wholly owned will help, if they need to, they can flow more pilots to make it more of an incentive)

Your comprehension skills appear marginal. I have no clue where you think I said anything remotely implying you'll al be out of a job. If you were also a more attentive student to history both in the context of this industry and at AAG, you'd see a pattern.

Since you've demonstrated poor ability in both areas, I'm sure my next points will sail over you as well.

But however, if other legacies see that strategy succeeding, you can be sure they'll neuter it with similar deals of their own. IF poaching becomes successful and a threat, it will be stopped. Considering that flow or no flow, there are simply a fraction of the necessary regional new-hires available from 'street' sources, without the ability to poach, all this strategy will do is turn Envoy into an airline version of the mythical Kookamora bird (a bird that flies in tighter and tighter circles until it flies up its own a$$ and disappears).

Envoy cannot sustain itself by flowing itself into non-existence.

Nice sales pitch, BTW. You'll certainly get a thumbs up from the New York Envoy ice cream vendor here. I believe this weeks flavor is Flow-thru 'n Cream ..........or was it RJ Mocha Almond ? :rolleyes: For all these grandiose beliefs to come to fruition, Envoy will need a steady 30+ pilots not just this month, but each and every month for years. Considering the almost certain shutdown of poaching should that become a threat and the severe absence of necessary pilots in the street-hire pipeline for regionals, it will simply become a situation of jockying assets, plugging holes and schmoozing chumps. AAG wants to run through the 824 by a set time and is doing what they need to now, among other things. Once that arbitration issue is no longer applicable, the (and remember this phrase) "landscape will change". ;)

Thanks for making my morning. The mental picture of that made me lol.

I didn't suggest you said that. Perhaps if your comprehension skills were not that of a four year old you would have notice my comments about the laws of lift was a literary tool known as a simile. (You may want to call your first grade teacher and have her go over that lesson again for you). I kind of thought my use of the phrase "I'd like to offer another" would have clued you into that. See it even involved the use of the pronoun "I" instead of "you" marking it as something I said, not you.

Maybe next time you attempt to question someone else's ability of communicate, you should develop your own abilities first. So far we have "things can change" and "I didn't say that" as your arguments. Do you have anything of real substance to offer here or would you like to go back to the sandbox and play with the other kids while the adults have a grown up conversation?

Looks like the Cuj has you right where he wants. Dancing around the fire with other Envoy zombies totally mesmerized by what he, the leader of the pow wow is chanting. Flow thru, flow thru, 2.5/6, 2.5/6.

We all know that without new hires coming in, the Cuj can't flow. Lets just hope that they can't find that fountain of youth!



Good Luck!

Don't waste your time with eaglefly/thrustlever. That's a black hole of nonsense you don't want to venture into. Now, sit back and wait for thrustlever to call us "management", "clr", or anyone of his usual catch phrases punctuated by his favorite emoticons.

:rolleyes:;):cool:

All I can say is thanks for the laugh.

Good Luck !

Good advice. Hopefully he'll stick with the likes of you and continue to try to roast marshmallows on a long dead fire. ;)

That is probably good advice. I think I will start to ignore him. Clearly he is not playing with a full deck.

Thank you. I find it unsatisfying wasting time with the misguided and emotional.

You've been saying this for a long time now. During that time, what has the evidence suggested?

Delta has reworked their SSP with Endeavor multiple times, and each time has not offered a true flow through. They have shown evidence that they will not give up the ability to interview their candidates first. Delta is notorious for hiring the right person to fit their culture, not just any pilot. So far they have kept their feed staffed with a union approved, retention bonus program, and it has worked.

United has done workshops and been telling potential candidates at job fairs that it is not looking to purchase a regional or offer a flow program. This information is straight from the mouth of the company. One of the largest regionals to feed United, Skywest, is pulling in more new hires that most regionals and is showing no signs of slowing down.

So again, I ask, what evidence do you have to suggest that the AA flow model will be adopted by Delta and United? The flow has been working at Envoy (and Piedmont) now for well over a year. Your predictions grow less credible the longer time goes on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He clearly said they would IF the flow through begins poaching pilots from their feed and harming their operation. So far this is not the case, in fact the flow isn't even bringing enough guys to Envoy to support 2.5/6. Why would United and Delta et al adopt something that has shown no success?

Reading is FUNdamental.

His point is, and has been all along, that the AA flow program won't work because once it does, it will be countered by Delta and United. My point is that the AA flow working, the Delta retention program, and United giving flying to quality regionals, are not mutually exclusive. They can all work simultaneously, and currently are.

A recent Union conference call stated that they ran the numbers on managements 2.5/6 claim and they found that the numbers work if Envoy averages 15 new hires per month. This info was stated by the DFW Reps who are far from in management's corner. Considering Envoy was able to double that last month, I'd say the flow is working just fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Noooo..........my point was and has been all along that IF AA's flow program becomes successful AND it threatens the other legacies regionals and thus feed, they will counter with measures to protect that feed, including similar retention programs like flow-thru's. That threat could involve poaching their present pilots thus weakening their regional networks or sopping up what little new-hires are available. FIRST though, I think they need to see a concern from both their end and demonstration that AA's flow program(s) are responsible.

So far, neither litmus has occurred. Envoy supposedly got 25 or so pilots recently, but can they do that month after month for a year or so ? Are they stripping large numbers of regional pilots from UAL or DAL regionals ?

So far no, and no.


I understand your intoxication with recent short-term numbers as you've been doing Envoy management Kool-Aid shooters for several years now and are hooked, but I think you're counting your chickens WAY too early. Besides, even with the above recent numbers that haven't proven themselves long-term, it is NOT directly effecting either United's or Delta's regional ops.

Do have any evidence to suggest that this is the route they will go? Because I have shown evidence that this is not the way they are meeting the staffing challenges.

If you do not have evidence and are merely speculating, would you care to give an estimate as to when Delta and United will have a flow?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is really no need for this type of discourse. If you are interested in a dealing with the facts, that's cool, we can have a discussion. If you are interested in snark and mindless blather, then I am sorry I engaged you in another discussion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is really NO way of telling if the flow at envoy is currently working. Those that flowed or currently are flowing are due to the fact that they were part of the flow agreement Letter3 or the 824's award agreement.

Once the 824 group is gone, we shall see if it really works. Those next in line will be in for a shock.....

Good Luck!

Snark and mindless blather is pretty much eaglefly's (thrustlever's) job description. Welcome to the ever growing list of people who are sorry they ever had to read anything he ever said.

I disagree. His points are usually well articulated. There was a point in time where I agreed with a lot of what he said. Lately, he seems out of touch with what's going on at the FFD carriers and deserves to be refuted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Envoy -----> Endeavor....should I do it? Live in NY, been at envoy just under 2 years. Help

I would stick it out through the end of the year and see if the satellite base thing pans out. It will also give you time to gauge how hiring is going here at Envoy. Last class had 20.

Depends on what your career goals are. If it's AA, stay here. If it's Delta, hands down Endeavor. If it's LCC, I'd probably go to the better QOL job, which for you sounds like Endeavor. Tough call though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are there talks of a possible NY satellite base?

Doubtful, probably only MIA. Again, tough call but it really all depends on two things...where you're at in your life (ie. what kind of short term pain you are willing and able to endure) and what your career goals are.

I don't think there's any talk of it right now. But, who really knows with the way things change around here.

company wants satellite base-
miami e145 cover republic.
N.Y. crj to cover TSA and republic
DFW CRJ to cover aspen since faa told psa to pi ss up a rope.
LAX E175 for the compass flying coming back per vp of flt ops.
phl e175 because the pdt e145 wont work

envoy will only have two concrete bases dfw and ord, pilots from satellite bases must show up in one of these two for disciplinary issues.

Lol just lol.

Let the hate flow through you... (Pun intended)

Anyways, 175s in PHL would make a LOT of sense with the impending shrinking and restructuring of RAH.

sorry bud. not hate, they are facts. just because some one does not like the facts does not make the person bringing the facts a hater.

I will say three of the five are definite.

You sir, are in idiot. And that's me being nice. My favorite is this talk of PSA and Aspen. I feel sorry for you.

feel yourself all you want, that is a personal issue. wake walsh, let others decide if you are being nice.

No please let him continue with how the envoy 175 is going to swoop in and save the day from the PDT 145 with trips to abe, art, and eri. Better yet forget the mainline e190 shuttle service to bos, lga, etc...Envoy's got it covered! For RAH maybe...that is a raging dumpster fire anyway.