Envoy to get 100% flow to AA.
09-18-2015 | 06:50 AM
#711
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Joined: Jan 2011
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From: DHC-8 100/300
I have to disagree. Parker did not offer the flows (and SSP) as, primarily, a recruitment and retention tool. He devised the flows as purely a COST CUTTING measure.
Parker wanted to get rid of those expensive $120,000+, sixteen- year RJ and Dash Captains and replace them with $60,000, three-year Captains. And in the process, he'd be replacing $40,000 three-year F.O.s with $22,000 newhires.
Recruitment was not his main goal and "retention" was the further thing from his mind. In fact, the recruitment and retention gains were an unintended benefit,...... "icing on the cake" if you will.
Parker wanted to get rid of those expensive $120,000+, sixteen- year RJ and Dash Captains and replace them with $60,000, three-year Captains. And in the process, he'd be replacing $40,000 three-year F.O.s with $22,000 newhires.
Recruitment was not his main goal and "retention" was the further thing from his mind. In fact, the recruitment and retention gains were an unintended benefit,...... "icing on the cake" if you will.
09-18-2015 | 06:57 AM
#712
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,450
Likes: 0
I have to disagree. Parker did not offer the flows (and SSP) as, primarily, a recruitment and retention tool. He devised the flows as purely a COST CUTTING measure.
Parker wanted to get rid of those expensive $120,000+, sixteen- year RJ and Dash Captains and replace them with $60,000, three-year Captains. And in the process, he'd be replacing $40,000 three-year F.O.s with $22,000 newhires.
Recruitment was not his main goal and "retention" was the further thing from his mind. In fact, the recruitment and retention gains were an unintended benefit,...... "icing on the cake" if you will.
Parker wanted to get rid of those expensive $120,000+, sixteen- year RJ and Dash Captains and replace them with $60,000, three-year Captains. And in the process, he'd be replacing $40,000 three-year F.O.s with $22,000 newhires.
Recruitment was not his main goal and "retention" was the further thing from his mind. In fact, the recruitment and retention gains were an unintended benefit,...... "icing on the cake" if you will.
09-18-2015 | 07:59 AM
#713
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 547
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The Flow wasn't really the brain child of either of those two men. At least not at envoy. It morphed out of a Flow Through/Flow Back Program thought up by Bob Crandall and Dan Garton in 1997. The only reason we still had a flow through by the time the US Air merger took place was due to an Arbitrator Ruling over a grievance filed by ALPA due to AMR not following the provisions of the Letter 3/Supp W side letters.
When Parker took over, the 824/Protected Pilots Flow Through were already in place. I do credit them in recognizing how the flow benefits pilot attraction and retention efforts and broadening it to all envoy pilots. It is true, under the Crandall/Arpey/Horton years at AA, they seemed to try and impeded the flow at every opportunity. I could give 100 reasons why I don't like Parker (for much of would apply to most of Corporate America) but since he has taken over, I haven't seen any circumstance in which he has impeded the flow and has, so far, actually gone above the minimum required under the arbitration/contractual requirements.
I don't think he is doing this out of the goodness of his heart, or feels obligated to adhere to the CBA of his employees. He, like every mainline CEO, is faced with the problem of staffing his regional feed. He realizes that locking in employment at AA is something that new airline pilots value. He doesn't care were AA new hires come from. If he can trade those new hire slots (which doesn't cost him anything) in exchange for attracting pilots to the low pay/scheduling abuses ( present at ALL regionals in one form or another ) of his wholly owned reagionals, he is going to do it.
That is why I have such confidence that Parker via Isom, will make the flow work. The moment that they allow a hiccup occur in the flow, the new hire confidence in the flow will drop and they will lose the ability to attract regional new hires at zero (or at least low) cost. In the end, I think he will ultimately need to offer something a little more than just the flow to attract pilots to envoy or PDT. There are not enough 1500 hour pilots to replace the number of pilots at the regionals who moving on to mainline. The regional industry will shrink. If Parker increased FO pay in addition to the Flow, I think there would be no shortage of 1500 hr or experienced airline pilots willing to come to ENY/PDT. This is the basic idea behind the current discussions about the Experienced Airline Pilot Pay Program. Personally, I think it would be much wiser on their part to simplify the whole program and just pay all envoy First Officers $50 an hour. All current FOs would be happy and would be least likely to leave. All current pilots at other regionals could make a lateral move without taking financial loses, most would be getting a raise. All 1500 hr pilots would come for the guaranteed job at AA and livable wage commensurate of a highly trained professional. Before its all done, I think all the regionals that survive will eventually offer higher compensation to attract/retain pilots but if envoy gets the jump on it with the increased benefit of the flow, it will cost them less in the long run. Which again, is what Parker is most concerned about, lowest cost solution.
When Parker took over, the 824/Protected Pilots Flow Through were already in place. I do credit them in recognizing how the flow benefits pilot attraction and retention efforts and broadening it to all envoy pilots. It is true, under the Crandall/Arpey/Horton years at AA, they seemed to try and impeded the flow at every opportunity. I could give 100 reasons why I don't like Parker (for much of would apply to most of Corporate America) but since he has taken over, I haven't seen any circumstance in which he has impeded the flow and has, so far, actually gone above the minimum required under the arbitration/contractual requirements.
I don't think he is doing this out of the goodness of his heart, or feels obligated to adhere to the CBA of his employees. He, like every mainline CEO, is faced with the problem of staffing his regional feed. He realizes that locking in employment at AA is something that new airline pilots value. He doesn't care were AA new hires come from. If he can trade those new hire slots (which doesn't cost him anything) in exchange for attracting pilots to the low pay/scheduling abuses ( present at ALL regionals in one form or another ) of his wholly owned reagionals, he is going to do it.
That is why I have such confidence that Parker via Isom, will make the flow work. The moment that they allow a hiccup occur in the flow, the new hire confidence in the flow will drop and they will lose the ability to attract regional new hires at zero (or at least low) cost. In the end, I think he will ultimately need to offer something a little more than just the flow to attract pilots to envoy or PDT. There are not enough 1500 hour pilots to replace the number of pilots at the regionals who moving on to mainline. The regional industry will shrink. If Parker increased FO pay in addition to the Flow, I think there would be no shortage of 1500 hr or experienced airline pilots willing to come to ENY/PDT. This is the basic idea behind the current discussions about the Experienced Airline Pilot Pay Program. Personally, I think it would be much wiser on their part to simplify the whole program and just pay all envoy First Officers $50 an hour. All current FOs would be happy and would be least likely to leave. All current pilots at other regionals could make a lateral move without taking financial loses, most would be getting a raise. All 1500 hr pilots would come for the guaranteed job at AA and livable wage commensurate of a highly trained professional. Before its all done, I think all the regionals that survive will eventually offer higher compensation to attract/retain pilots but if envoy gets the jump on it with the increased benefit of the flow, it will cost them less in the long run. Which again, is what Parker is most concerned about, lowest cost solution.
09-18-2015 | 10:08 AM
#714
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,041
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From: GV Captain
The Flow wasn't really the brain child of either of those two men. At least not at envoy. It morphed out of a Flow Through/Flow Back Program thought up by Bob Crandall and Dan Garton in 1997. The only reason we still had a flow through by the time the US Air merger took place was due to an Arbitrator Ruling over a grievance filed by ALPA due to AMR not following the provisions of the Letter 3/Supp W side letters.
When Parker took over, the 824/Protected Pilots Flow Through were already in place. I do credit them in recognizing how the flow benefits pilot attraction and retention efforts and broadening it to all envoy pilots. It is true, under the Crandall/Arpey/Horton years at AA, they seemed to try and impeded the flow at every opportunity. I could give 100 reasons why I don't like Parker (for much of would apply to most of Corporate America) but since he has taken over, I haven't seen any circumstance in which he has impeded the flow and has, so far, actually gone above the minimum required under the arbitration/contractual requirements.
I don't think he is doing this out of the goodness of his heart, or feels obligated to adhere to the CBA of his employees. He, like every mainline CEO, is faced with the problem of staffing his regional feed. He realizes that locking in employment at AA is something that new airline pilots value. He doesn't care were AA new hires come from. If he can trade those new hire slots (which doesn't cost him anything) in exchange for attracting pilots to the low pay/scheduling abuses ( present at ALL regionals in one form or another ) of his wholly owned reagionals, he is going to do it.
That is why I have such confidence that Parker via Isom, will make the flow work. The moment that they allow a hiccup occur in the flow, the new hire confidence in the flow will drop and they will lose the ability to attract regional new hires at zero (or at least low) cost. In the end, I think he will ultimately need to offer something a little more than just the flow to attract pilots to envoy or PDT. There are not enough 1500 hour pilots to replace the number of pilots at the regionals who moving on to mainline. The regional industry will shrink. If Parker increased FO pay in addition to the Flow, I think there would be no shortage of 1500 hr or experienced airline pilots willing to come to ENY/PDT. This is the basic idea behind the current discussions about the Experienced Airline Pilot Pay Program. Personally, I think it would be much wiser on their part to simplify the whole program and just pay all envoy First Officers $50 an hour. All current FOs would be happy and would be least likely to leave. All current pilots at other regionals could make a lateral move without taking financial loses, most would be getting a raise. All 1500 hr pilots would come for the guaranteed job at AA and livable wage commensurate of a highly trained professional. Before its all done, I think all the regionals that survive will eventually offer higher compensation to attract/retain pilots but if envoy gets the jump on it with the increased benefit of the flow, it will cost them less in the long run. Which again, is what Parker is most concerned about, lowest cost solution.
When Parker took over, the 824/Protected Pilots Flow Through were already in place. I do credit them in recognizing how the flow benefits pilot attraction and retention efforts and broadening it to all envoy pilots. It is true, under the Crandall/Arpey/Horton years at AA, they seemed to try and impeded the flow at every opportunity. I could give 100 reasons why I don't like Parker (for much of would apply to most of Corporate America) but since he has taken over, I haven't seen any circumstance in which he has impeded the flow and has, so far, actually gone above the minimum required under the arbitration/contractual requirements.
I don't think he is doing this out of the goodness of his heart, or feels obligated to adhere to the CBA of his employees. He, like every mainline CEO, is faced with the problem of staffing his regional feed. He realizes that locking in employment at AA is something that new airline pilots value. He doesn't care were AA new hires come from. If he can trade those new hire slots (which doesn't cost him anything) in exchange for attracting pilots to the low pay/scheduling abuses ( present at ALL regionals in one form or another ) of his wholly owned reagionals, he is going to do it.
That is why I have such confidence that Parker via Isom, will make the flow work. The moment that they allow a hiccup occur in the flow, the new hire confidence in the flow will drop and they will lose the ability to attract regional new hires at zero (or at least low) cost. In the end, I think he will ultimately need to offer something a little more than just the flow to attract pilots to envoy or PDT. There are not enough 1500 hour pilots to replace the number of pilots at the regionals who moving on to mainline. The regional industry will shrink. If Parker increased FO pay in addition to the Flow, I think there would be no shortage of 1500 hr or experienced airline pilots willing to come to ENY/PDT. This is the basic idea behind the current discussions about the Experienced Airline Pilot Pay Program. Personally, I think it would be much wiser on their part to simplify the whole program and just pay all envoy First Officers $50 an hour. All current FOs would be happy and would be least likely to leave. All current pilots at other regionals could make a lateral move without taking financial loses, most would be getting a raise. All 1500 hr pilots would come for the guaranteed job at AA and livable wage commensurate of a highly trained professional. Before its all done, I think all the regionals that survive will eventually offer higher compensation to attract/retain pilots but if envoy gets the jump on it with the increased benefit of the flow, it will cost them less in the long run. Which again, is what Parker is most concerned about, lowest cost solution.
Good Luck!
09-18-2015 | 10:32 AM
#715
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 138
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Lol, no you're just as good as the other sales folk on here. But there is no evidence you are getting those aircraft. There never has been, simply conjecture and mostly just lies to sway people to envoy. Tout the flow all you want, but you're not getting RAH aircraft anytime soon.
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09-18-2015 | 10:49 PM
#718
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Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 133
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Alright, SO what is the current length of time one could expect to be on reserve?
What are the call out times? short and long if you have it.
Is the 2.5 year upgrade and 6 year flow really going to be a reality.( and yes I have read this is expected to happen with the upcoming flows leaving.)
Any other information I might be want to hear about?
I know piedmont you are able to put your inlaw in your travel benefits if you only have one parent is that the same at envoy. ex father passed would like to add mother in law
Thanks for the responses
What are the call out times? short and long if you have it.
Is the 2.5 year upgrade and 6 year flow really going to be a reality.( and yes I have read this is expected to happen with the upcoming flows leaving.)
Any other information I might be want to hear about?
I know piedmont you are able to put your inlaw in your travel benefits if you only have one parent is that the same at envoy. ex father passed would like to add mother in law
Thanks for the responses
09-18-2015 | 11:04 PM
#720
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 843
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From: DHC-8 100/300
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