CBA 2015 Lessons learned
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
Alderdriver,
Look at it this way. If I deviate on a trip that goes from MEM to ATL and then later decide that I want to take the scheduled DH, can I un-deviate? We all know that the answer is no. Once you deviate, you are on your own.
The contract requires you to notify the company through VIPS of your deviation intentions. If you deviate on both legs, and then decide that you want to take the originally scheduled second leg, you can't un-deviate. When you check in on that deviation, VIPS says that you are confirming that you are within 100nm of XXX airport.
My "guess" is that the company looks at the language you quoted as you are deviating as you told us you would, and once you are in position to take the second leg that you told us through VIPS that you were going to take, you are now no longer deviating. Its just like when you do your final check in for a single leg deviation, once you are in position, you are no longer deviating.
I feel that stating that your interpretation is 100% correct and telling pilots that they can check both boxes when intending to take the company scheduled second leg is risky. I wouldn't want to advise anyone to do anything other than follow the proper deviation criteria, being more conservative if needed.
Are you 100% sure that you would win in arbitration if you checked both boxes in VIPS, and then changed your plans and decided to take the scheduled second leg and missed your trip because something happened on that second leg? To me, that is a pretty big gamble. If the duty officer or scheduler won't help you out, do you think the company will just pay you for the missed trip and let it slide.
It all boils down to you saying unequivocally that you are allowed to deviate one way, then change you mind and all is good. This is based on what you perceive as simple language. However, when other language is mentioned, you state that it is clouding the waters. Don't you think that both sides will use language to cloudy the waters in arbitration?
My advice would be to wait to deviate until you are sure of your plans. If you check the boxes indicating that you are going to deviate on all legs, then count on the company holding you to that. If you later end up on the scheduled leg and something happens and the duty officer helps you out, count yourself lucky. I see this as being more grey than black and white. YMMV, but wouldn't you feel terrible if a new hire followed your advice, missed a trip, and lost a job?
Look at it this way. If I deviate on a trip that goes from MEM to ATL and then later decide that I want to take the scheduled DH, can I un-deviate? We all know that the answer is no. Once you deviate, you are on your own.
The contract requires you to notify the company through VIPS of your deviation intentions. If you deviate on both legs, and then decide that you want to take the originally scheduled second leg, you can't un-deviate. When you check in on that deviation, VIPS says that you are confirming that you are within 100nm of XXX airport.
My "guess" is that the company looks at the language you quoted as you are deviating as you told us you would, and once you are in position to take the second leg that you told us through VIPS that you were going to take, you are now no longer deviating. Its just like when you do your final check in for a single leg deviation, once you are in position, you are no longer deviating.
I feel that stating that your interpretation is 100% correct and telling pilots that they can check both boxes when intending to take the company scheduled second leg is risky. I wouldn't want to advise anyone to do anything other than follow the proper deviation criteria, being more conservative if needed.
Are you 100% sure that you would win in arbitration if you checked both boxes in VIPS, and then changed your plans and decided to take the scheduled second leg and missed your trip because something happened on that second leg? To me, that is a pretty big gamble. If the duty officer or scheduler won't help you out, do you think the company will just pay you for the missed trip and let it slide.
It all boils down to you saying unequivocally that you are allowed to deviate one way, then change you mind and all is good. This is based on what you perceive as simple language. However, when other language is mentioned, you state that it is clouding the waters. Don't you think that both sides will use language to cloudy the waters in arbitration?
My advice would be to wait to deviate until you are sure of your plans. If you check the boxes indicating that you are going to deviate on all legs, then count on the company holding you to that. If you later end up on the scheduled leg and something happens and the duty officer helps you out, count yourself lucky. I see this as being more grey than black and white. YMMV, but wouldn't you feel terrible if a new hire followed your advice, missed a trip, and lost a job?
My issue with this whole thing is, where does it explain how to deviate only the first leg? The new hire guide is very vague with this. My interpretation of that guide was that there’s only one way to deviate regardless of which legs you plan to deviate, and then you check in at the gate of the second leg to let CRS know you aren’t deviating the second leg. Regardless of how you deviate, the end result is the same, you are on the second leg of the dh. So I’m not sure how it should make a difference to CRS.
#32
My issue with this whole thing is, where does it explain how to deviate only the first leg? The new hire guide is very vague with this. My interpretation of that guide was that there’s only one way to deviate regardless of which legs you plan to deviate, and then you check in at the gate of the second leg to let CRS know you aren’t deviating the second leg. Regardless of how you deviate, the end result is the same, you are on the second leg of the dh. So I’m not sure how it should make a difference to CRS.
There is no one place the step by step, nuts and bolts are explained. Officially anyway. There's a 21 page PDF circulating around that explains deviating in detail. Absent that, the procedures simply evolved and people have figured it out via WOM, this forum and trial and error. There are some FAQs in Insite and notes contained on various VIPS screen that you only see when you actually have a deadhead and are attempting to deviate. Some are only available to read after you've taken an irreversible action. It's a pretty bad education process for our new hires - hence the single source PDF I mentioned.
We used to have to deviate all legs no matter what. There was no option to join one of the DH legs. You lost your GT no matter what you did. You did your final check-in when you were within 100 NM of your revenue city. That was it.
Now we have more options, but those are only worthwhile if people understand them, use and enforce them when necessary. As you can see, some people didn't even know the Check-in criteria changed and the screen now includes "joining a segment of the scheduled deadhead". But it's there.
Why it makes a difference to crew control is they want to be able to pawn the responsibility off on us rather than solve the problem themselves. If the DH goes as scheduled, it makes no difference to them. If it doesn't, the less pilots they have to revise and reschedule the better. So, you bet their first option is going to be to tell you - "You deviated, it's your problem". That only works now if we let it (or you're actually still deviating and not on a segment of the scheduled deadhead).
Last edited by Adlerdriver; 03-04-2019 at 09:14 PM.
#33
I disagree. By unchecking the second box, it doesn’t show the $ on your trip summary in the Deviation column. If you check both boxes you’ll get a $ under each leg. If you only tick one, you’ll only get the one $.
#34
The only criteria I see in the CBA I need to meet in order to do that check-in is physically arriving at the departure gate for said DH leg. After that and my check in via VIPS or CRS, according to the CBA, I’m “no longer considered deviating”. There’s nothing in there about whether I have a “$” by my name.
I’ve done it on several occasions and it works great. Even got my GT back with one easy phone call to limo and catering.
“We’ve never done it that way” or “it’s always been this way” isn’t valid. Our CBA changed for the better. It’s a good thing - one of very few.
Last edited by Adlerdriver; 03-04-2019 at 10:47 PM.
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
a. Notification
i. A pilot shall notify the Company through VIPS of his intention to deviate from a scheduled deadhead at the beginning of a trip. This notification shall occur no later than 60 hours prior to the showtime of the scheduled deadhead."
So I am not making a big deal about checking boxes, I am complying with my responsibilities under the contract. Just because it is your opinion that there is nothing to arbitrate doesn't make it so. You already said scheduling is giving pilots trouble with this and telling them that they deviated, so they are on there own.
In my example of a DH from MEM to ATL, you said that I can un-deviate if I change my plans. So, I show up to the airport in MEM and the flight from MEM to ATL is cancelled. So you are saying that scheduling is required to help me out and I am pay protected on this trip even though I deviated just because I then decided to take the scheduled DH? Good luck with that.
My guess is that the company would say that the language you are quoting means that you deviated on the first leg as you told them in VIPS and that once you are in position for the second leg, you can check in. If you deviated both legs, then you are on your own. You are required by the contract to tell the company exactly how you intend to deviate at least 60 hours prior to the trip. No where in the contract does it mention changing your mind.
IMO, you are oversimplifying the contract language. Do what you want, but eventually you may get burned. If you do, just tell them that you want them to pay you anyway, because you don't see anything that needs to be arbitrated in a grievance. I'm sure they will roll over and agree. You are so much smarter than any lawyer that may try to cloud the waters.
#37
Pinseeker,
I simply identified a problem that has occurred in some isolated situations in an effort to help. Now I get sarcasm and in response yet somehow I have the attitude? Meanwhile, you don’t even know what the Final Check-in screen says.
I’ve lead the proverbial horse to water and I’m done. I know the contract and will continue to use and enforce it as best I can. Good luck to you in your future deviations (starting to wonder when the last time that might have been). Hopefully someone else can benefit from this exchange.
I simply identified a problem that has occurred in some isolated situations in an effort to help. Now I get sarcasm and in response yet somehow I have the attitude? Meanwhile, you don’t even know what the Final Check-in screen says.
I’ve lead the proverbial horse to water and I’m done. I know the contract and will continue to use and enforce it as best I can. Good luck to you in your future deviations (starting to wonder when the last time that might have been). Hopefully someone else can benefit from this exchange.
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
Are you asking how to do that? If so, I'll be happy to explain but I can't tell if you already know and are just asking rhetorically.
There is no one place the step by step, nuts and bolts are explained. Officially anyway. There's a 21 page PDF circulating around that explains deviating in detail. Absent that, the procedures simply evolved and people have figured it out via WOM, this forum and trial and error. There are some FAQs in Insite and notes contained on various VIPS screen that you only see when you actually have a deadhead and are attempting to deviate. Some are only available to read after you've taken an irreversible action. It's a pretty bad education process for our new hires - hence the single source PDF I mentioned.
We used to have to deviate all legs no matter what. There was no option to join one of the DH legs. You lost your GT no matter what you did. You did your final check-in when you were within 100 NM of your revenue city. That was it.
Now we have more options, but those are only worthwhile if people understand them, use and enforce them when necessary. As you can see, some people didn't even know the Check-in criteria changed and the screen now includes "joining a segment of the scheduled deadhead". But it's there.
Why it makes a difference to crew control is they want to be able to pawn the responsibility off on us rather than solve the problem themselves. If the DH goes as scheduled, it makes no difference to them. If it doesn't, the less pilots they have to revise and reschedule the better. So, you bet their first option is going to be to tell you - "You deviated, it's your problem". That only works now if we let it (or you're actually still deviating and not on a segment of the scheduled deadhead).
There is no one place the step by step, nuts and bolts are explained. Officially anyway. There's a 21 page PDF circulating around that explains deviating in detail. Absent that, the procedures simply evolved and people have figured it out via WOM, this forum and trial and error. There are some FAQs in Insite and notes contained on various VIPS screen that you only see when you actually have a deadhead and are attempting to deviate. Some are only available to read after you've taken an irreversible action. It's a pretty bad education process for our new hires - hence the single source PDF I mentioned.
We used to have to deviate all legs no matter what. There was no option to join one of the DH legs. You lost your GT no matter what you did. You did your final check-in when you were within 100 NM of your revenue city. That was it.
Now we have more options, but those are only worthwhile if people understand them, use and enforce them when necessary. As you can see, some people didn't even know the Check-in criteria changed and the screen now includes "joining a segment of the scheduled deadhead". But it's there.
Why it makes a difference to crew control is they want to be able to pawn the responsibility off on us rather than solve the problem themselves. If the DH goes as scheduled, it makes no difference to them. If it doesn't, the less pilots they have to revise and reschedule the better. So, you bet their first option is going to be to tell you - "You deviated, it's your problem". That only works now if we let it (or you're actually still deviating and not on a segment of the scheduled deadhead).
I understand how the check boxes work. What’s your point? Are you saying that if I check both boxes that somehow means I can’t join the second leg of the deadhead and perform my Final Check-in because there’s a “$” by my name?
The only criteria I see in the CBA I need to meet in order to do that check-in is physically arriving at the departure gate for said DH leg. After that and my check in via VIPS or CRS, according to the CBA, I’m “no longer considered deviating”. There’s nothing in there about whether I have a “$” by my name.
I’ve done it on several occasions and it works great. Even got my GT back with one easy phone call to limo and catering.
“We’ve never done it that way” or “it’s always been this way” isn’t valid. Our CBA changed for the better. It’s a good thing - one of very few.
The only criteria I see in the CBA I need to meet in order to do that check-in is physically arriving at the departure gate for said DH leg. After that and my check in via VIPS or CRS, according to the CBA, I’m “no longer considered deviating”. There’s nothing in there about whether I have a “$” by my name.
I’ve done it on several occasions and it works great. Even got my GT back with one easy phone call to limo and catering.
“We’ve never done it that way” or “it’s always been this way” isn’t valid. Our CBA changed for the better. It’s a good thing - one of very few.
"The intent of the deviation policy is to allow a pilot business travel flexibility in accordance with the options and conditions specified herein. Except as provided in Section 8.C.1.f.ii., a pilot who deviates is responsible for his scheduled, revised, rerouted, or canceled trip. A deviating pilot must ensure his compliance with FAR crew rest requirements prior to operating a Company flight. A pilot who deviates from a scheduled deadhead shall earn trip guarantee as if he were deadheading as scheduled."
I'm not saying that this hasn't worked for you. I'm not saying that the check-in criteria hasn't changed. I have deviated on both legs before as well as only deviating on the first leg and then joining the second leg. I didn't make it a point to notice if VIPS said the same thing for both check-ins. My point is, the language isn't as simple as you make it. You may be right and that is how the company interprets the language. You may also be wrong. If you want to risk it and check that you are deviating both segments of a 2 leg DH, and then try to change you flights and catch the second scheduled leg if something goes wrong and expect the company to protect you if you aren't in position to fly your trip as scheduled, so be it. I have been around here long enough to see that the company will do what is best for them, period. The only way to know for sure if to have an arbitrator rule on the meaning of the language or for the company to publish an FCIF or other communication stating that your interpretation of the language matches theirs.
Again, do what you want, I really don't care. I hope you are right and nothing bad ever happens. However, if you deviate both legs and then the scheduled leg gets cancelled and you were on that flight, don't be surprised if you get the scheduler and duty officer who say you are wrong and you end up greiving it. I'm just saying.
#39
“Once this check-in has been accomplished, the pilot shall no longer be considered as deviating, for the purposes of subsequent delays, revisions, and all trip services.”
The language you quote has been there since at least 2006. Mine is new as of 2015. Your quote is still required to delineate the responsibilities of those pilots who can’t or choose not to join a segment of the scheduled DH. But, it doesn’t negate the new 2015 language.
Look at it like the old 2006 references to first class DHs being required for duty periods greater than 16 hours. That’s still in the CBA but doesn’t negate the new 2015 “lay-flat seat is good enough” addition. It’s ok for the company to use new contract provisions to their advantage but we’ll take what they give us and like it? Is that your attitude?
If you want to risk it and check that you are deviating both segments of a 2 leg DH, and then try to change you flights and catch the second scheduled leg if something goes wrong and expect the company to protect you if you aren't in position to fly your trip as scheduled, so be it.
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
So is this:
“Once this check-in has been accomplished, the pilot shall no longer be considered as deviating, for the purposes of subsequent delays, revisions, and all trip services.”
The language you quote has been there since at least 2006. Mine is new as of 2015. Your quote is still required to delineate the responsibilities of those pilots who can’t or choose not to join a segment of the scheduled DH. But, it doesn’t negate the new 2015 language.
Look at it like the old 2006 references to first class DHs being required for duty periods greater than 16 hours. That’s still in the CBA but doesn’t negate the new 2015 “lay-flat seat is good enough” addition. It’s ok for the company to use new contract provisions to their advantage but we’ll take what they give us and like it? Is that your attitude?
You keep referrring to risk as if I’m accepting more somehow by joining a segment of the scheduled DH. Where is the added risk? I’m already deviating. What’s the alternative? Avoid the scheduled DH altogether and guarantee that I have absolutely no chance in getting support for a disruption? If taking that scheduled DH segment is a prudent deviation option or part of a back-up plan for my deviation, how is it that I’m taking on more risk than any other deviation? Sooner or later one has to commit to a plan to get where they’re going. When it’s prudent, I’m going to try to incorporate the scheduled DH or a portion of it into my primary or backup plan. If that means I can uncheck the appropriate boxes at 60 hours, great. If I have to check them all at that time, then I will. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to avoid the scheduled DH if it comes to that, not do my final check-in as I’m allowed or roll over and shrug my shoulders if I get told “no” in the event of an issue. I don’t share your “gee, the almighty company always does what’s best for them so we better let them” attitude. If it comes to a grievance (which I highly doubt), it won’t be my first and I’ll win.
“Once this check-in has been accomplished, the pilot shall no longer be considered as deviating, for the purposes of subsequent delays, revisions, and all trip services.”
The language you quote has been there since at least 2006. Mine is new as of 2015. Your quote is still required to delineate the responsibilities of those pilots who can’t or choose not to join a segment of the scheduled DH. But, it doesn’t negate the new 2015 language.
Look at it like the old 2006 references to first class DHs being required for duty periods greater than 16 hours. That’s still in the CBA but doesn’t negate the new 2015 “lay-flat seat is good enough” addition. It’s ok for the company to use new contract provisions to their advantage but we’ll take what they give us and like it? Is that your attitude?
You keep referrring to risk as if I’m accepting more somehow by joining a segment of the scheduled DH. Where is the added risk? I’m already deviating. What’s the alternative? Avoid the scheduled DH altogether and guarantee that I have absolutely no chance in getting support for a disruption? If taking that scheduled DH segment is a prudent deviation option or part of a back-up plan for my deviation, how is it that I’m taking on more risk than any other deviation? Sooner or later one has to commit to a plan to get where they’re going. When it’s prudent, I’m going to try to incorporate the scheduled DH or a portion of it into my primary or backup plan. If that means I can uncheck the appropriate boxes at 60 hours, great. If I have to check them all at that time, then I will. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to avoid the scheduled DH if it comes to that, not do my final check-in as I’m allowed or roll over and shrug my shoulders if I get told “no” in the event of an issue. I don’t share your “gee, the almighty company always does what’s best for them so we better let them” attitude. If it comes to a grievance (which I highly doubt), it won’t be my first and I’ll win.
I'm done attempting to discuss this with someone who is intent on arguing. You must be on the "Tool Box."
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