Adlerdriver

Well, you've said much more than that over the last few pages. Now you've decided to start with the insults and name calling.

"Holier than thou"? Wow. I'd love to see what I've said here that you think rises to that level? You sure are quick to attribute "attitudes" to me when from my perspective I've been very respectful. I feel strongly about my opinion and used CBA language and logic to support it and now you've decided I'm arguing with you. I'd call it an impasse. So be it. I'll be sure to get back with you if I encounter a situation that resolves this one way or the other.

Nope. Never been on the NC, but I saw that one coming a mile away which is one of the many reasons I voted "No".

Rock

I’ve got two thoughts.
1. That 21 page deviation guide is like the Rosetta Stone for the deviation part of our contract. Whoever wrote it should be next in line to Fred Smith. And no, I didn’t write it.
2. Based on actual experience, Adlerdriver provides more clarity on our contract than either FDX or ALPA. I’d bet against the Patriots before I’d bet against him. And no, I’m not Adlerdriver. But if he and Walrus combined their talents, we could condense our 2015 contract to a two or three pager we could all understand.

kronan

Reading Comprehension for idiots.

You Don't get to Join the Scheduled Leg regardless of however many boxes you check when you notify the Company you are deviating.

It's an entirely New Reservation.
If your Scheduled DH is MEM-DFW-LAX, clicking Any of the Boxes cancels your Scheduled reservation...so thinking you can go ATL-DFW and then Join the DFW-LAX leg won't work.

Depending upon how the boxes are checked, your Scheduled GT in LAX may, or may not be canceled.

As Adlerdriver has attempted to point out, numerous times, once you arrive in DFW you can accomplish your Final Check-in and you are then protected if something goes awry with the DFW-LAX leg.

Again, as Adlerdriver has attempted to point out, CRS is more than happy to shuffle the solution off to Us since we've Deviated on the 1st leg. And, if you're ignorant of the CBA, they get away with it.

It's not rocking boats, it's not jeopardizing anything, it's complying with our Contractual requirements.

UnusualAttitude

Bingo.

-UA

pinseeker

You say this, but then say you agree with Alder. Maybe you should title this writing by idiots.

When you check both boxes, you are saying that you are deviating both legs. When you check the box for the first leg, you are saying that you are only deviating on that leg and intend to take the scheduled second leg. Before this contract, there was only one box to check. If it doesn't matter how many boxes you check, why did they add a second box?

I'll say again, Alder may be right. And I'll say again, why not just check the appropriate boxes. I've called CRS when connecting to the second leg and things went bad. I've never been told I was deviating, maybe because I only check the box that says I am deviating on the first leg.

kwri10s

Dude, you keep missing the entire point of the discussion. None of this has anything to do with the boxes. If they are checked or not checked. It does not matter. If you are deviating, however you checked the boxes, and you are standing in the departure gate for the scheduled DH, if you can get a ticket on that flight, then you can call scheduling and do final check-in. Once you do that you are no longer deviating. You have all the protection in place just like if you did not deviate. If you cannot get a ticket on that flight, then you are still deviating as you cannot join the scheduled DH.

Scheduling does not want to fix the problem if the scheduled DH changes, so they are telling the young guys they are on their own. Nothing new here, Scheduling has been trying to get us to solve offline transportation cancels, changes, WX, MX, etc for years. If something changes on your scheduled DH, you just call Scheduling, let them know and then go get lunch while you wait for them to fix it.

pinseeker

I understand the point you are trying to make and as I have said, you may be right. However, there is also language in the contract that says that once you deviate, you are on your own.

My point is, and maybe I'm not doing a good job explaining, there are two boxes on a two leg deadhead so that you can choose to deviate on one, or both legs. My devils advocate position is if you deviate on both legs and then later get a ticket for the second scheduled leg and that leg gets cancelled for wx, maintenance, or any other reason and you miss the trip, don't expect the company to take your side.

According to Alders position and backed by a few others, I could have a trip that DH's from MEM to ATL to start revenue flying in ATL. I could deviate on the one and only leg of my DH and then later decide that I want to take the scheduled flight and all I have to do is show up to the gate in MEM and check in and I am protected. That position also states that the company is now responsible for getting me new tickets and rescheduling my pairing if anything happens to the MEM to ATL flight. I don't think that CRS and the company would agree.

Instead of telling people it doesn't matter which boxes you check and to just show up, maybe we should tell people to check the appropriate boxes and only deviate on the legs you really want to.

Here is the section that has been quoted;

iv. Final deviation check-in may be accomplished if the deviating pilot joins the Company scheduled deadhead(s) and, as a result, he will arrive at the point of origin of the pilot’s first revenue flight or standby period as if the pilot had not deviated. Upon arrival at the departure gate of the scheduled deadhead flight, the pilot shall check-in with VIPS, or CRS if VIPS is not accessible, and indicate that he is in position for the scheduled deadhead flight. Once this check-in has been accomplished, the pilot shall no longer be considered as deviating, for the purposes of subsequent delays, revisions, and all trip services.

Alder keeps highlighting the "or CRS" to make his point, but the sentence goes further and states "if VIPS is not accessible." It doesn't say if you decided not to deviate as you indicated to CRS earlier. That language also says "joins the Company scheduled deadhead(s)." If you deviate on all segments of the DH, you have told the company that you aren't joining their scheduled DH.

For the multiple time I will state again that Alder and others may be right. But they have also stated that is not how CRS is interpreting it and CRS is trying to place it on the pilots. IMO, it is only a matter of time until someone gets bit by this and has to attempt a grievance simply because they told the company through VIPS, as required in the contract, that they were going to deviate on both legs when in fact, they only wanted to deviate on the first leg.

MEMA300

I know we are all desperate for more time at home but there is an easy fix to this whole DH/Deviation problem. If everyone just took a month or two and did all DH as built and published we should get what we need.

Adlerdriver

Pin,
To start off, it’s A-d-l-e-r. What say we work on the small stuff we might be able to agree on first.

I just wanted to point out that I think you’re giving CRS far more credit than they deserve. IMO, they’re not “interpreting” anything. They’re just doing what they’ve always done, which is look for a “$” somewhere on their CRS display and when they see it, say “no soup for you”. I think it’s highly unlikely that VIPS display they look at changed one iota with the implementation of this new Final Check-in option. As a result, I think it’s far more likely that any actions they take contrary to this new CBA language are being done out of ignorance and habit, not any active interpretation. If and when it comes up, we need to be firm and un-yielding and enforce the NEW language.

No, that’s not what I keep highlighting. I did once to make a different point. The NEW language I keep using that you seem to be able to ignore because it doesn’t line up with the way we(you) used to have to deviate and trumps an old restriction in a different CBA paragraph is this one:
“Once this check-in has been accomplished, the pilot shall no longer be considered as deviating, for the purposes of subsequent delays, revisions, and all trip services.”

I was “considered as deviating” for a while...maybe 60 hours or so....but I am “no longer”. Peace.

P.S. Ask yourself this: How can anyone no longer be considered doing something they were never doing in the first place?

pinseeker

OK Adler,

To answer your P.S., when you deviated on the first leg, and not on the second leg, you are considered deviating until you get into position to join the second leg. If something happens on the first leg that makes it impossible for you to join the scheduled leg, you are still deviating until you get into your final position.

Now, tell me what you think would happen in my single leg DH MEM to ATL scenario. Do you think if after deviating on the one and only leg, I could show up to the gate in MEM, check in and expect CRS and the duty officer to rewrite my pairing if the scheduled DH that I deviated on got cancelled? Or, do you think that they would say, "You deviated, so you are on your own." What if I wasn't able to be in position on time, would I still be pay protected?

P.S.

The language in the CBA that you say this language trumps specifies when that language no longer applies. If this new language indeed trumps that language, why didn't they add that paragraph reference to the exemption as well? Wouldn't that have been easy?

Again, I'm simply pointing out that there is language that requires you to tell the company exactly how you are going to deviate and language that says once you do, you are on your own. In VIPS, when deviating, it asks you which leg(s) you want to deviate on. If you select both, there is language that says you are now on your own. So, IMO, its not as simple as you imply. Again, I hope you are correct, but I'm not going to tell anyone that it doesn't matter which boxes you check.

Peace to you as well, we are on the same team!