Night pay
12-02-2019, 10:47 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
Night pay
Originally Posted by iHateAMR
I love when guys like you forget “operational emergencies” which are called without recourse erase any contractual provisions and stretch our limits to... wait for it... FAR limits.
Yeah but 117 limits are not as liberal as 121 limits. You’ll almost never be legal to go to 16 hours under 117. It’s usually a few less hours than that.
Originally Posted by iHateAMR
Was your prior experience at a night cargo outfit with 117 rules?
If we are limited with current 117 rules to 3 consecutive night hub turns, how do you suppose the company will get you up to the contract min guarantee... Free cash? Or another hub turn at a later date?
If we are limited with current 117 rules to 3 consecutive night hub turns, how do you suppose the company will get you up to the contract min guarantee... Free cash? Or another hub turn at a later date?
117 doesn’t limit any airline to 3 consecutive night hub turns. And the company doesn’t build lines anyway. There are more than one way to skin the cat.
Originally Posted by Nightflyer
The company will do whatever is cheapest while protecting the system.
I would expect nothing less.
I would not expect them to spend money for what is convenient for us.
Exactly what happened with the carve out. Management actually SPENT money lobbying against it and it wasn’t for our convenience. That should say something.
Originally Posted by kronan
You know who doesn't go to FAR limits because of snow near Memphis.
Me.
You know who doesn't go to Operational limits every time.
Me.
I don't need a reg or a CBA to protect me. I'm either fit to fly or I'm not.
There's been times on HSBY where I've been well within CBA Scheduled limits and I've said No-not doing that.
Times when an Operational Emergency's been called and I've said-NO.
I am never obligated to fly anything.
Never.
I've said no to CRS BS revisions after being on duty a mere 7 hours following a 27-hour layover.
On paper, it should have been copacetic. In practice, not so much.
Me.
You know who doesn't go to Operational limits every time.
Me.
I don't need a reg or a CBA to protect me. I'm either fit to fly or I'm not.
There's been times on HSBY where I've been well within CBA Scheduled limits and I've said No-not doing that.
Times when an Operational Emergency's been called and I've said-NO.
I am never obligated to fly anything.
Never.
I've said no to CRS BS revisions after being on duty a mere 7 hours following a 27-hour layover.
On paper, it should have been copacetic. In practice, not so much.
The problem with fatigue is that it’s insidious. 117 is meant to get you off duty or keep you from duty BEFORE having to call in fatigue. It’s more prospective.
Originally Posted by iHateAMR
So, the company can create unproductive weekend off, worth 12 hours of credit, or split your week and not pay you the 12 hours. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out how they’ll exploit this. Have we not learned our lesson with lie flat seats yet? I have a retirement plan to sell you, bring a fork!
A regulation isn’t something management can negotiate. So it’s not like contractual language on lie flat seats. Plus, I see weekend layovers all over the 76 bidpack. They all seem to pay at least 6 hours a day. I assume that international trips have long enough layovers where this is not an issue?
Originally Posted by PW305
“A layover facility could be a suitable accommodation if it meets the definition of suitable accommodation set out in § 117.3. A room that has multiple reclining chairs with multiple individuals resting could also be a suitable accommodation if it meets the suitable accommodation requirements of § 117.3. The FAA emphasizes that the definition of suitable accommodation in § 117.3 does not require that access to a suitable accommodation be limited so that only one person can use it at any given time.”
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rt117_Interps/
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rt117_Interps/
Suitable accommodation means a temperature-controlled facility with sound mitigation and the ability to control light that provides a flightcrew member with the ability to sleep either in a bed, bunk or in a chair that allows for flat or near flat sleeping position. Suitable accommodation only applies to ground facilities and does not apply to aircraft onboard rest facilities.
Originally Posted by BlueMoon
Things that also would change.
117 requires a 30 hour test every 168 hours instead of 24 in 7. So a Sunday evening to Monday night layover wouldn’t really work anymore to reset you for a week.
Also duty extensions are limited to 30 minutes. With the exception you can extend up to 2 hours ONCE. Before you extend past 30 minutes again you need 30 hours of rest.
117 requires a 30 hour test every 168 hours instead of 24 in 7. So a Sunday evening to Monday night layover wouldn’t really work anymore to reset you for a week.
Also duty extensions are limited to 30 minutes. With the exception you can extend up to 2 hours ONCE. Before you extend past 30 minutes again you need 30 hours of rest.
Any 30 hour off or layover anywhere in any 7 days would work.
Originally Posted by Sluggo_63
Assuming the sleep rooms don't count for the mitigation provided for in 117, if I were the company, instead of Monday-Monday week long hub turn weeks with a weekend layover at the very end of the trip, I'd go Wednesday-Wednesday hubturn weeks with the weekend layover in the middle creating two, three-consecutive hubturn trips with a mitigating long layover in the middle.
Still have week-on/week-off parings. Doesn't necessitate another commute.
Still have week-on/week-off parings. Doesn't necessitate another commute.
This is just one example of how things could still work. There are others as well.
12-03-2019, 06:39 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Excessed WB Capt.
Posts: 1,063
Weekend layovers went away for 2 reasons that were CBA related. SIG SIDE LETTER (2008) letting company negate hostorical bid pack and we also had a provision in old FCH that didnt allow DH on turbo props...
With regard to night pay... we gave up 8/24 protection and went right to FAR limits for 24 hour block and compentsatory rest requirements and happened with little discussion so you think we will get night pay? The company will counter with our current rates being night pay and reducing the day rate amount.
Our schedules and hotels are earily reminescant of my commuter days...pay and bennies not so much but schedules yes.
Anybody got a copy of 1997-2007 bidpacks? Would love to see the changes...
With regard to night pay... we gave up 8/24 protection and went right to FAR limits for 24 hour block and compentsatory rest requirements and happened with little discussion so you think we will get night pay? The company will counter with our current rates being night pay and reducing the day rate amount.
Our schedules and hotels are earily reminescant of my commuter days...pay and bennies not so much but schedules yes.
Anybody got a copy of 1997-2007 bidpacks? Would love to see the changes...
12-03-2019, 09:45 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
Originally Posted by MEMA300
With regard to night pay... we gave up 8/24 protection and went right to FAR limits for 24 hour block and compentsatory rest requirements and happened with little discussion so you think we will get night pay? The company will counter with our current rates being night pay and reducing the day rate amount.
They can argue that the sky is yellow, that doesn’t mean it’s a good argument. Our pay rates are already below the airlines management competes with for pilots. So sure, they can say that our pay rates are already night pay rates and so they should lower the rate for day flying. But it won’t go anywhere when our “night” pay rate is already lower than other others’ “day” pay rate.
Again, let’s not be defeatist when having discussions about trying to make the contract better. This mentality needs to STOP. And the attitude that, well we gave up X, Y, and Z last time so this next time we are giving up A, B, and C because that’s what always happens. Or the, well that’s the way we’ve always done it. It gets old. Get over it.
I get it. Many here are jaded. All I’m saying is not to rollover before we’ve even begun negotiating. At least show a spine for a change. I’m not saying we will get everything we want. But unless we go in with that attitude, we will not get anything we want.
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