You have a far greater chance of DVT from getting actual Covid than you do from the vaccine.

reference the chart a few posts above.

Also it is distinctly different from gene therapy


https://www.reuters.com/article/fact...-idUSL1N2PH16N

You're ignoring the vast differences in hospitalization and death rate. You're ignoring the huge continuum that "symptomatic" can entail (from a sniffle to fluid filled lungs and suffocation). Lumping symptomatic into a single group is flat-out moronic.

If you're correct, I'd prefer to achieve my superhuman natural immunity by developing a hospital-free, non-lethal, probably asymptomatic case of covid courtesy of my vaccination.

If people are still developing mild and asymptomatic covid while vaccinated, this is this best case scenario. We march on toward herd immunity and "naturally" developed immune cells while keeping people out of the hospitals and morgues. It would seem to be the perfect scenario.

You go ahead and do it the hard way.

This. It’s not so much i’m worrying of dieing of Covid, but if I get in a car accident and need an icu bed it maybe tough to find one that isn’t already filled.

Let alone if you need a non emergency surgery like a torn ligament or rotator cuff. You may be waiting longer for those surgeries and that keeps you from getting back to work and you just drain your DSA.

Rock isn't taking the vaccine. Period. When all the foreign countries require it he's gonna forward all his internet articles and facebook memes to them and they'll let him do whatever he wants...

You know Covid presents blood clots too and actually kills hundreds of thousands of people....

Stop questioning the "Personal Decisions" of others! Their decisions have nothing to do with you!

Well, I'm not sure I understand a chart that shows negative numbers per 100,000. I understand no cases of kidney failure, but not -9, -5, -2, etc. Does the chart show spontaneous healing of those diseases after vaccination? As for it not being gene therapy. How does taking a vaccine that forces your cells to replicate a spike protein that does not occur naturally in the human body not qualify as gene therapy? It forces the cells to create a spike protein where the DNA has been fractured. This isn't a traditional vaccine that causes the body to develop antibodies because a weak or dead virus is introduced. That's why the vaccinated can pass on the virus after they get it. The vaccine does not help us to kill the virus, only possibly not suffer the symptoms as much, and even that is open to discussion.

Let's agree, I won't change your mind, and you won't change mine. Thank goodness we live in a country where we have the right to say, "My body, my choice."

I’m not sure what you mean by 40% less effectiveness. Everything I’ve read is that cases don’t matter. It’s hospitalizations (flattening the curve) and deaths. And that the vaccine is preventing the overwhelming majority of those here. That it’s almost exclusively those not vaccinated who are being hospitalized and dying. Not that that means FedEx will mandate it. No one knows that.

I live in PIT. My sister is in the hospital {Magee) fighting an infection, and she happens to be a medical assistant at that hospital. She is vaccinated and has a non-covid infection. They have her in a hallway because all the rooms are full. When she asked if they were full with covid patients she was informed that there are virtually no covid cases in the hospital. She was told the vast majority of the rooms are full of vaccinated patients that are fighting various viruses that are something other than covid. Interesting that I haven't seen that on our local news. My sis is a proponent of the vaccine, so you can imagine her surprise.

negative numbers just mean they had less incidences of that side effect than the control group.

I’m not trying to change your mind. Just trying to put data out there hat counters uncited questionable claims.

Google is a wonderful thing. You can read the report yourself if you like. I did. I prefer reading actual source documents to media summaries. It’s incredible what you learn when you don’t rely on some reporter telling you what they think. Here’s a link to the study. You’re correct. It isn’t peer reviewed yet. But that’s a matter of time as the study was conducted by one of the largest Heath groups in Israel in coordination with the University of Tel Aviv. What will you say when it is?

Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections

Here is the part where they list the numbers involved in the study.

Overall, 673,676 MHS members 16 years and older were eligible for the study group of fully vaccinated SARS-CoV-2-naïve individuals; 62,883 were eligible for the study group of unvaccinated previously infected individuals and 42,099 individuals were eligible for the study group of previously infected and single-dose vaccinees.

So about 25,000 shy of 800,000. Here is the part where they report vaccinated are 27 times more likely to have symptomatic COVID than naturally recovered.

“Symptoms for all analyses were recorded in the central database within 5 days of the positive RT-PCR test for 90% of the patients, and included chiefly fever, cough, breathing difficulties, diarrhea, loss of taste or smell, myalgia, weakness, headache and sore throat. After adjusting for comorbidities, we found a 27.02-fold risk (95% CI, 12.7 to 57.5) for symptomatic breakthrough infection as opposed to symptomatic reinfection (P<0.001) (Table 2b). None of the covariates were significant, except for age ≥60 years.”


Regarding the additional protection to COVID recovered people getting a vaccine, it was a .5 fold increase in protection. Out of 14,000 naturally immune people in their study, 16 people who were also vaccinated got symptomatic COVID, and 23 people who weren’t vaccinated got symptomatic COVID.

Regarding your last comment, I think people don’t understand that there is a difference between a coronavirus and things like polio and mumps or measles. Coronaviruses evolve rapidly. That’s why the COVID vaccines developed using the Wuhan variant aren’t nearly as effective against the new variants. It’s also why there is no vaccine for the common cold. Meanwhile, measles and polio don’t change much at all, if ever. That’s why you don’t have to get a measles shot every year. Measles is very prevalent throughout the world. But you don’t need a measles booster shot when you travel because you are vaccinated, and the original vaccine you got is still effective because the measles virus doesn’t mutate. Now do COVID. Completely different, and in less than a year after pushing out a COVID “vaccine”, the CDC is now considering recommending a booster every 5 months.

Which country we fly to currently requires us to get the vaccine? I don’t know what the status of Canada is, but it might be the only one. Almost every country we fly to is just fine with a negative COVID test, and many don’t care about your vaccine status one way or the other. In fact, our own CDC doesn’t doesn’t care about your vaccine status to get back into this county. You know what it does accept…a COVID recovery statement.
As for memes etc., my contribution to this thread is a scientific study that clearly indicates natural immunity to COVID is better than vaccine induced immunity. It matches early studies that say the same thing. Last time I had COVID it had much less impact than a mild cold. But that doesn’t make me special. That makes me part of the vast majority of people who get COVID. Having said that, I have no problem with anyone getting the vaccine if they want. It really makes sense for fat, unhealthy old people. Easier to get the shot than hit the gym.

The latest data on the Pfizer vaccine specifically is that it is less than 40% effective at preventing infection from the delta variant of COVID.
But we are talking about FedEx here. For FedEx, cases matter a lot. The last time I popped positive I got the news while I was working out. I never had significant symptoms. But because I was positive, I was pulled from a 90 hour trip. Fortunately, I hadn’t been in close contact with any other FedEx pilots before testing positive, but if I had, they would have been pulled from their trips. The person who popped positive next to me in the AOC resulted in at least three other pilots being removed from trips. I’m sure they are all fine, but the ripple effect at FedEx is huge. So cases matter a lot to FedEx.
Finally, my whole point on this is that mandating vaccines for people who have already had COVID is unnecessary. It’s very easy to determine who has already had COVID. Like me, they have a document showing a positive COVID test. That document works everywhere I’ve showed it. In much of the world, proof of COVID recovery is counted the same as a vaccine certificate. The company definitely knows who has tested positive. And that number is growing every day. It’s something that needs to be added to the discussion, because if the latest data coming from Israel turns out to be true, the average FedEx pilot is 13 times more likely to be exposed to COVID from a vaccinated pilot than a previously recovered pilot.

Yes... You are quite the scientist. You ought to run for Surgeon General.... Most countries don't require it yet. It may surprise you to hear that things are changing every day. A month ago no airline required the vaccine. A week ago the vaccine was not fully FDA approved. A few days ago Delta charged their vaccinated and unvaccinated pilots the same rate.

The point is that the restrictions are coming and the rules will even apply to fully vetted internet scientists such as yourself.

Thanks for linking the report. Still wondering why you linked a news article and then complain when what you state wasn't in your original link. Reading the report, I didn't get the same impression as you. This report was just a numbers crunch on data collected and was not a controlled study. I also noticed that there were 11 times as many vaccinated participants as there were previously infected participants. Of those that got infected or reinfected, a mere 0.03% of the total participants, there were 12 times as many vaccinated people who go infected as those who got reinfected. So, there were 11 times as many people and 12 times as many infections. Not a big difference in my book. Also, only 0.035% of the vaccinated got infected at all while 100% of those people who were reinfected had COVID at least once and 0.03% of those got it a second time. Of the group that had symptoms, 9 were hospitalized. Of that 9, 8 were vaccinated and 1 was a reinfection. So, 8 vaccinated people out of over 670,000 people were hospitalized while 1 out of 62,000 people who had gotten COVID before were hospitalized. Again, not convincing in my book that getting COVID is better than getting the vaccine and likely not getting COVID. That report showed that 99.96% of the vaccinated people did not get COVID, even the Delta variant. Nice try though!

I don't really care if someone chooses not to get vaccinated. I is their choice. Just don't expect me to support benefits for your choice. Choices have consequences, some good, some bad.

You are correct. Things are changing everyday. Just a few months ago we were told the vaccine was 97% effective at preventing COVID infection. That turned out to be false. Then we were told it would be effective for at least a year. That turned out to be false. Then we were told that once a country hit 70% vaccinated it would have herd immunity. That turned out to be false. Now you’re telling me the whole world is going to require everyone to be vaccinated. Just this week Denmark decided to get rid of all COVID restrictions. No passports. No nothing. So I’ll note your sage predictions of what is going to happen in the future. But unless you are a clairvoyant scientist, I’ll bet your predictions are about as useful as all the others.

This was the conclusion of the team of highly qualified doctors and scientists who conducted the study.

Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity.

They disagree with your assessment. And I’m not sure what you mean in your last sentence. What benefits?

Vaccine Stance
 

Is herd immunity something we need for COVID when the vast majority of people vaccinated and or previously infected are not hospitalized or die when contracting it (along with those young and or healthy people who haven’t been vaccinated or previously contracted it)?

We don’t have herd immunity for influenza and no one seems to worry about that because the vast majority of people are not hospitalized or die from it.

Herd immunity saves the lives of those people who are allergic to the contents of vaccines and who are therefore, unable to take vaccines.

Herd immunity saves the llives of those people who are allergic to the contents of vaccines.

So everyone should just have a smallpox party and hope they're one of the lucky ones who don't react badly?

I agree with you. I don’t think we need herd immunity. More importantly, I don’t think (and most experts now agree) that herd immunity is even achievable with COVID. So why were people like Fauci pushing it as a goal before the vaccine came out? I’ll attach a video of him projecting that we could have herd immunity in the US by July or August if enough people got vaccinated. The most frequently quoted number was 70%. Israel achieved that goal a while ago. They are currently at 78% fully vaccinated. They also currently have one of the highest rates of COVID spread in the world. The vaccines simply aren’t performing like the experts hoped they would. The virus is doing what coronaviruses have always done. It mutates faster than we can keep up with. How is it possible that the greatest minds in medical science could have gotten this so wrong? It’s not like coronaviruses are new.
I think your comment about influenza is right on point. It is a simple fact that a vast majority of people who get COVID do not die or need hospitalization for it either. And yet…on the 12 day trip I am on, there is exactly one day I can leave my hotel on a layover. (Which explains why I have too much time on my hands and have stupidly decided to participate in this thread)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/video...irms-ifo-video

If you’re an absolute idiot, yes. Please do. For the rest of the world, take the vaccine if you’re worried about being one of the unlucky few who require hospitalization. We know who is most at risk now. If you fall into a higher risk category, you’d be stupid not to get the vaccine. This isn’t a new concept. It’s how the flu vaccine has been handled for decades.

Got it. I guess we'll just act like we don't see all of the people who have no apparent risk factors and end up dead.

I still don't see any solid logic not to vaccinate in your argument.

1.3% of covid deaths are in vaccinated individuals.

My argument has been that people who have recovered from COVID should not be required to be vaccinated. That’s it. The number of COVID deaths in COVID recovered people in that very recent and very comprehensive Israeli study is 0%. As in no one who had COVID once died from it after getting reinfected. I like my odds with that one.

I’ll buy that. What’s the timeframe that should be good for?

Until I decide I am in a high risk category for severe COVID. I just had it in April. I had my T Cell immunity checked and it is in fine shape. The latest data shows COVID T Cell immunity doesn’t really dissipate over time. Israel has extended their window for COVID recovered all the way to 31 Dec 2021. And they’ll probably extend it again as their database grows. Meanwhile, they’ve shortened their vaccine window to 6 months from your last shot. Get a booster or lose your Green Pass.
I will probably get the shingles vaccine this year if that makes vaccine people happy.

Get ready for all the super neato internet scientist "Research" articles... The bottom line is that that consequences for the "Personal Decisions" are coming. Your body. Your choice. Your consequences.

Wow, so 100% of those that recovered from Covid, didn’t die of Covid? That’s some high-level stuff right there.

If that were true, it would be wonderful. Hopefully we will all continue to enjoy that freedom. I fully support anyone who wants to get vaccinated getting vaccinated. And I fully support anyone who doesn’t want to get vaccinated not getting vaccinated.

This is why some people still believe the vaccine makes them immune to COVID. They simply can’t keep up.
The discussion involved a study specifically about people who had COVID once and then got it a second time. Zero died. Conversely, Merle Haggard said 1.3% of COVID deaths are people who were vaccinated.

That leaves 98.7% of deaths in the unvaccinated. So if you haven’t already had either the vaccine or a case of COVID, how is it sensible for the company, the country, your family or your life and/or health insurer to support being unvaxxed?

That’s not how it works. Countries with high vaccine rates are now having a majority of COVID hospitalizations and deaths among the fully vaccinated. And in this country, the leading cause of death in America is related to tobacco use and the second leading cause of death is related to obesity (2.8 million Americans die each year from factors directly related to obesity). Both are completely voluntary and controllable in the people who die from them. So if you want to go down the road you’re going down, how is it sensible for the company, the country, your family or your life and/or health insurer to support you if you’re fat or a smoker? Take a look around the AOC. We’ve lost one pilot to COVID. Want to guess how many will die due to being fat? If you are really concerned about saving lives and/or company dollars, you’re barking up the wrong tree.

I knew this horse was dead when I climbed on it, but it burned some hotel lockdown time. I just saw the Biden administration is going to recommend a booster every 8 months. I hope they at least change the formula in those shots. COVID found a pretty quick work around on that last batch. Good luck to all.

I heard mandatory lobotomies next.

‘For a lot of people on this BB it would be a waste of time and money:)

In countries with high vaccine rates, they have a high percentage of vaccinated people which means that most people who go to hospitals are vaccinated. Math.

All that matters is the percentages within the groups (vaxxed/hospitalized vs unvaxxed/hospitalized). Repeated references to context free statistics are worthless.

Miraculously, flu numbers plummeted.

Attachment 6279

Yummy side affects. Sign me up!

How is the FAA allowing this vaccine for pilots considering the side effects…which I think are more harmful to ones ability to maintain a class I?

If one reads the comprehensive list of all the potential side effects of anything (including aspirin), it would scare someone half to death.

[img]blob:https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/f8ac0318-f97b-443b-9454-05fa2817e957[/img]
https://www.nejm.org/na101/home/lite...110475_f4.jpeg