So if you're vaccinated, you should be safe, correct? What does it matter if I'm not vaccinated? If you're vaccinated and you are not safe from the unvaccinated, what was the point of getting vaccinated? I'm vaccinated against polio, and it doesn't matter to me if you aren't. They stopped vaccinating Americans for polio in 2000, out of fear of vaccine-derived outbreaks, think "Delta variant" of polio. The point being, if you are vaccinated, what do you care if others aren't? We don't check those that come across the border illegally if they are vaccinated for or carry polio, nor covid, so the risk must be low.


Not all the ATP's on here had flying as a first career. There may be a few that studied a little biology in previous times. As pilots, we are expected to interpret all the data presented to us, before we make a decision. Then we use our experience, knowledge of the rules, and that rarest of commodities, common sense to make a decision...except for covid...don't look at anything, shut up, and color.

Vaccine Stance
 

I think this is the point you were trying to make.

If one leaves any cancer untreated, one won’t get natural immunity from it and 100% will die from it. If one leaves COVID untreated, 99% don’t die and one will receive natural immunity from it.

The point of getting vaccinated against Covid is to reduce the probability of hospitalization and death. If you get covid and require hospitalization, you are effectively taking resources away from people that need to go to the hospital for other reasons (heart attack, car accident, stroke, etc.). That about sums it up. I wish the company would go ahead and require it. The people that are so vocally against it are so very often the looneys id rather not share a beer with, anyway.

The problem with this reasonable argument is that we've never taken this position before, and remember when AIDS was a both a death sentence and within certain communities, highly transmissible.

Second, there is a serious trust deficit between those mandating the vaccine and those upon the mandate falls, and the strong arm tactics (threatening employment, withholding medical care, etc.) are frankly distasteful at best, and incompatible with a free society.

I say this as a vaccine early adopter well before any mandates, for my personal reasons. Ultimately, the government has been less than forthright on their response to the virus, what they know when they knew it, etc. since day one, and that's a function outside of who is/was President. For that same body to now ask 300 million Americans to just hit the "I believe" button using all sorts of strong arm tactics, a compliant press who has been agenda driven from the start (to include knowingly publishing/broadcasting false and/or misleading information, with next to no retraction) and every power of the federal government (after the President less than 8 months ago said no mandate would be necessary) is asking alot.

There is a reason why we read the story "the boy who cried wolf" to kids. It has relevance.

Maybe FedEx will do what Delta is doing and charge a premium to those who aren’t vaccinated. I’d love to listen to those complaints!

long story short, right now people have the right to choose if they are vaccinated or not! Their employers can choose to require it! If their employers require it the employee can get it or they can quit. Nobody is holding anyone down and forcing a vaccine in them.

If you don’t like it vote with your feet. Go start your own cargo operation and advertise no vaccines required since they don’t work. Also, no sick days because only medically superior specimens will work for you.

Get off the internet and talk to the doctors you have been going to for years for advice. If you watch YouTube and end up at Tractor Supply to treat or prevent Covid, you’re doing something wrong. Everyone knows the only pet supplies that help people are fresh water fish flake food. If you’re having a heart attack, put two shakes of fish food under your tongue and it clears all blockages. Additionally if you are having excess gas or IBS, carrots for pet rabbits can be used as a suppository to clear symptoms within 15 minutes of insertion. You’re welcome.

Education or indoctrination?
 

Perhaps the longer you are exposed to propaganda, brainwashing and indoctrination (e.g. institutions of “higher learning”) the more likely you are to believe the latest “safe and effective” marketing slogan. Do a research paper on that marketing term and/or the actual safety of the jab (not really a vaccine); you might be surprised by what you learn. The AMA, FDA, NIH and the MSM are highly influenced by big Pharma $$.

Hahaha, that’s awesome. Tractor Supply - love it! [emoji23]


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That’s what flattening the curve was precisely about. But that was abandoned a long time ago. No one talks about curves or the flattening of them anymore. Why do you think that is?

Because it's so out of control now and they know the south will never be responsible enough to lock things down to help contain this.

Just to clarify.

We have a shot that....

Doesn't prevent transmission.

Doesn't prevent getting COVID.

Doesn't inoculate against the virus.

Need to get a new one every 5 months.

Has no long term safety profile.

And is labeled as the exit metric for this modern rendition of 1984???

***But if you take vitamins, supplement your own immune system, live a healthy life, and take an early treatment protocol for a virus you have a 99.997 chance of surviving you're labeled by the government as a selfish lunatic.

This isn't about science or medicine, this is cultish behavior.




https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...850fafcf09.jpg

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Well.. condoms aren't 100% protective but that doesn't mean you say "screw it!" and raw dog a hooker...

[QUOTE=Meat Fighter;3294835]Just to clarify.

We have a shot that....

Doesn't prevent transmission.

Doesn't prevent getting COVID.

Doesn't inoculate against the virus.

Need to get a new one every 5 months.

Has no long term safety profile.

And is labeled as the exit metric for this modern rendition of 1984???

***But if you take vitamins, supplement your own immune system, live a healthy life, and take an early treatment protocol for a virus you have a 99.997 chance of surviving you're labeled by the government as a selfish lunatic.

This isn't about science or medicine, this is cultish behavior.


Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner! All you folks who know more than the rest of us, and feel the superior need to chastise those who question... What part of the above list is false?

Wait a second…I was told what happens in Wan Chai stays in Wan Chai! :D

I’ll take a stab at a few that are at least misleading or lack nuance, which is basically all of them.

Literally nobody claims it does any of these things. Why do you people treat this as a binary thing? It’s not an ‘it works or it doesn’t’ proposition. The vaccines are highly effective at mitigating both the spread of the virus and the severe effects for those who do become infected. That is a fact.

There is still a great deal of debate about the need for boosters at the FDA and nobody has suggested needing one after only five months.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/13/covi...-conclude.html

Not a false statement per se, but it’s equally correct to say that there has been no evidence to suggest, at this point, that they aren’t safe.

I’ll give you this one, I suppose.

if we are looking at ‘Nuance’: by definition calling it a vaccine implies inoculation and thus prevents you from getting it. Polio vaccine. Flu shot. Labeling it a vaccine is criminally false at worst and misleading at best.

Ok. 8 months instead of 5. But booster still recommended by the ‘expert’ trusted to save the world.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pol...dations-507210

I’m still military and have to get it. And of all the things uncle sam has put in my body I’m sure this is on the low end of the threat ladder. I got the shots. Yet there is no benefit. Still gotta mask up. Still can get infected. Unlike anthrax and small pox. Those are covered. Because they are vaccines.

Does anybody in this thread think they are changing those ignorant “other guy’s” views. People have their minds made up on both sides because they know the one real infallible truth.

[QUOTE=urinmyseat;3294866]
Now I wouldn't go so far as to call anyone a lunatic, but there does seem to be some kind of psychosis.

Those who ascribe to your line of thinking literally believe no one does or can know more than you do. Believing that your cursory perusal of information gleaned from the most dubious of sources qualifies you to argue with anyone even those who are experts in their field. The people challenging this line of ego driven selfish BS aren't speaking as experts on infectious disease they're replying with guidance given by SMEs.

The worst part is you just wont stop crowing about it.

[QUOTE=Shaman;3295001]Let me simplify this...

If the shot does not prevent transmission...

1. Then what is the justification for mandating it?

2. How do you prevent transmission with a treatment that does not prevent transmission? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c066962ec7.jpg

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[QUOTE=Meat Fighter;3295004]The fundamental flaw in your argument is that you are insinuating that because the vaccines do not completely prevent transmission, that they are useless. This is just simply not true, and they don’t need to be 100% effective to mitigate the problem.

PEOPLE WHO ARE VACCINATED ARE SIGNIFICANTLY LESS LIKELY TO ACQUIRE AND/OR TRANSMIT THE VIRUS, END UP IN THE HOSPITAL, OR DIE.

What part of that do you not understand?

I don’t agree with mandates, but why can’t you just admit that the vaccines are helpful?

[QUOTE=Meat Fighter;3295004]no vaccine prevents transmission. That's not what vaccines do man. This is basic stuff. Vaccines are designed to prompt an immune response. The efficacy of the vaccine indicates how effective the immune response, but viruses can evolve and mutate. Doesn't mean vaccine isn't working.

It's not a conspiracy the bug decided it wants to fight so we have to change tactics. For goodness sakes this isn't that hard to grasp without creating ideological boogeyman and assertions of mind control.

Definition of inoculation

1 : the act or process or an instance of inoculating especially : the introduction of a pathogen or antigen into a living organism to stimulate the production of antibodies


I guess I missed the part where it goes on in invisible font to say "guaranteeing that no infection will ever occur again for the duration of ones life"

[QUOTE=Shaman;3295013]Again, let's simplify this.

You stated that vaccines, to include the COVID vaccine, aren't intended to prevent transmission.

1. So then how does the COVID-19 vaccine stop transmission?

2. If it doesn't prevent transmission why should everyone be mandated to receive it to..... wait for it.... "protect others?"

The questions answer themselves, but I keep hearing how people choosing not to be vaxxed are continuing the pandemic.

https://youtu.be/t8Xuz9wPLJE

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So, literally, you are arguing epidemiology and policy via Funk and Wagnalls?

I'm just sitting here wondering A) how you're going to vote on the contract and B) the next presidential election. But, really I already know.

[QUOTE=Shaman;3295013]Your President said 7 months ago that "mandates weren't necessary."

Why the shift?

Vaccine Stance
 

Even at the height of the pandemic, there was no lack of resources to take care of those who were sick. All of the temporary facilities and hospital ships went mostly unused. And there are very few of them today being used. There are not mass postponements of medical procedures like there were at the height. It’s not out of control whatsoever. Look at the charts, the curve has been flattened and continues to be relatively flat and below the resources line. If there truly was rationing of ICU beds, it would be front pages news.

Front page of Al.com

https://www.al.com/news/2021/09/24-pregnant-covid-patients-hospitalized-in-alabama-50-of-icu-patients-have-covid.html

It looks like a surge, but saying 50% of people in ICU have COVID doesn't tell us much. Are they there with another ailment and tested Covid positive as we know they test everyone in the hospital for Covid. How many are tested with PCR and have a false positive? What is the median age? Etc

By the way, what happened to the flu? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...96d5f23630.jpg

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My wife has been in the hospital twice in the last month and wasn't tested either time.

Where I'm at if you stay overnight you're tested.

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1. You could cause me to get a breakthrough case. Getting very sick would be rare but possible. I'd miss some work that I don't want to miss and it will cost me some money.
2. I have children too young to vaccinate. You may cause a breakthrough case that I give to them or give it to them directly. They will probably not get very sick but they most certainly could. They will miss several weeks of school and that hurts their education.
3. You'll give it to other people and the hot potato will go around until it hits someone who can't vaccinate for a valid medical reason. It will kill some of them.
4. You drive up insurance costs and we're in the same risk group. So you drive up my insurance costs unless the company forces you to pay more.
5. You drive up government spending as they may end up paying for your hospitalization. Then you and I pay similar taxes.
6. You use up hospital resources that affect those of us who have actual emergencies. Right now we're out of Ambulances in Memphis thanks to the unvaccinated. If I get in a car wreck I may have to depend on them throwing me in a cop car, hoping they get me to the hospital in time, and then hoping there's a room available. Meanwhile a certain percentage of yall are on vents when you could've just gotten vaccinated.

You being unvaccinated absolutely does affect everyone else. Calling it a "Personal Decision" is disgusting when it literally kills other people.

Actually the point I was trying to make was that your doctor knows how to interpret medical data and is telling yall to get it. You aren't as smart as him just because you read what you want to believe online. He's a DOCTOR. You're a pilot with a computer. I'm pretty sure I could google something that tells me I'm a ferret online if that's what I want to believe.

In the 80s I can remember people saying that they didn't believe that condoms worked to prevent HIV because the virus was smaller than the holes in the condom.

It's such a simple answer that it's very shocking to hear yall constantly bring this up... Social Distancing, washing your hands and wearing masks mitigates the spread of the flu. In a normal flu season we don't do that. Also, there was a push from the government to get a flu shot last year in the anticipation of the Covid spike we got right in the middle of flu season. Spoiler Alert... This will now also be a light flu season. When Covid restrictions go away flu will look more normal.

#6 I’m not going to get into this debate but this is 100% not true. My friend is a Chief with MFD and the reason there are no ambulances is because they are ridiculously undermanned.

The undermanning is because people are getting sick of putting up with the BS. My neighbor is trying to get out of the ER because she's sick of the mad house that unvaccinated people are creating. She thinks they should be told to go home without treatment. My uncle is an ER doctor in Pensacola. He claims he has PTSD from this nonsense and agrees with her that we should start turning unvaccinated Covid patients away. Personally I agree with them. If you want to be an internet doctor then go be an internet doctor and treat yourself instead of abusing the system. Your body. Your choice. Your repercussions.

1. You don’t know if I am vaccinated or not
2. All I stated was a fact
3. Go yell at the clouds or some kids to get off your lawn

The other reason cold and flu season was so mild was because the little germ incubators/spreaders had to stay out of school at home.

I love this game make an overly broad general claim "otherwise it would be front page news". Someone refutes said claim with a referenced source (front page of local state news source). Don't read cited resource and claim it isn't sufficient to rebutt initial claim even though it was on the landing page and directly contradicted the notion put forth that ICU resources are abundant and not in short supply.

Tell him what he's won Chuck!!

Yeah... I forgot about that too... We restricted some children from going to school. People worked at home... Some people skipped seeing their families over the holidays. It made 100% sense that the flu season was light.

There are a multitude of reasons for why we had mild flu season, and it likely had something to do with the CV-19 control measures (social distance/masks) were actually Influenza control measures originally (most national pandemic planning had an influenza baseline) which we assumed would useful for other airborne viral diseases. The 6' separation number is, IIRC a function of tuberculosis control. Additionally, travel from China globally was restricted, which would reduce the level of repeated infection of various areas outside of China.