Vaccine Stance
 

My condolences.

That doesn’t negate real data. We know who is at the highest risk of dying from COVID. We have data by age, race, pregnancy status, and specific comorbidities. The numbers do not lie. People die every day of this disease, just like many others. Forcing the vast majority of people who are at risk levels measured in the tenths of a percentage isn’t going to make it more safe for those who freely chose to vaccinate. The vaccination protects you, not the vaccination status of others. I’m not sure why people don’t understand any of that.

My condolences.

d0 yoRE RaesarCH, br0!

Cause every scientist who isn't moonlighting selling dick pills on talk radio is a stooge of the Commies, or something.

Just further evidence (as if any were required) that pilots are 100% blue collar.

Ultimately this is why I took things so cautiously when Covid hit. While most I flew with went around saying, "My body. My choice" I had a wife who'd had a ton of miscarriages, a failed IVF and we'd wasted $50,000 on it all. Thankfully I have a beautiful son who's 15 months old now and a healthy wife. I was wearing masks as soon as the CDC said to do so and was very careful. As soon as everyone was safe following the birth my father in law who was on dialysis wanted to come see his grandson. He didn't have long to live so we were as careful as we could be. He passed a few months ago but thankfully not because of us giving him Covid. My wife lost her grandmother in a nursing home to Covid in July of 2020. My 92 year old grandmother had to go to an ER in January and picked up Covid from the "My body. My choice" people and it almost killed her. My uncle works in an overloaded ER in Pensacola and saved her life with a new treatment. Covid has affected everything for our family. Ultimately I feel lucky that it's "only" killed one family member.

All family deaths are tragic irrespective of cause, but as was posted earlier the data is the data even with large swaths of data that include "with COVID," due to the CDC now recognized faulty PCR test and also extremely loose state based reporting guidelines.

But to live one's life thinking repurposed underwear over one's face is going protect others, or yourself, from an airborne respiratory virus is ludicrous and goes against 100 years of established infectious disease data. And to reiterate... repeat after me... THE VACCINE DOES NOT PREVENT TRANSMISSION, even Herr Fuaci and CDC Director Walensky have admitted on multiple occasions.

So while the death or illness of a family member is always tragic and personal, it is of no use as a cudgel to shame others for making choices that have nothing to do with said tragedy.



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I didn't share that personal story as a "cudgel to shame others for making choices......." The point, which a few of you missed completely, was that the data points you dismiss as irrelevant actually represent real people dealing with real hardships. To further drive home your missing of the point you engage in false equivalencies and mouthing "All family deaths are tragic irrespective of cause", sigh.


But your vaccine resistance isn't about bad data, vaccine efficacy, faulty tests, or a misunderstanding of mRNA. It is about your need to put yourself before anything and everyone. #MEFIRST. You denigrate and defame decent people who's primary concern is the health and safety of others, because it makes you feel some sense of contrarian enlightenment. You can see the truth and the rest of us are all just uninformed lemmings unable to discern fact from fiction. That makes you feel good. It makes you feel more superior. Because all of existence is there to either bolster you or take something from you. Every situation is either flattery or threat. Every person you encounter is either Friend or Foe.


In this binary world, No reasoned argument will have any impact. No data points are convincing.


If you don't want to get vaccinated no one is gonna force you to. But like it tell my kids free will is a MF and that choice may limit others.

"If you don't want to get vaccinated no one is gonna force you to". If you work for the USPS, or are a congressional staffer maybe but there is enormous pressure if you are a working stiff. Will the court cases be resolved prior to you losing your job? Can those in your family who are working afford to lose their jobs?

As for the vaccines, perhaps the posters on this thread can describe their efforts running data reports from the VAERS database (hint, anyone can do it). And perhaps the posters can describe the first use of mRNA vaccine in a human (non human rated to boot!), the first "widespread use of mRNA vaccine in humans (say over 25K people)" and the where and what disease and when. And all the subsequent uses of mRNA vaccines. Please describe what cellular machinery is used in mRNA vaccines, upper vs lower respiratory immune response, current data on mRNA cardiac issues post vaccination, and, of course, the difference between efficacy vs effectiveness of vaccines. Please do the same for adeno vector vaccines. As for statistics and loss of family members, there is an old saying in flight safety, "statistics are great until you are the statistic". Airplanes crash. FDX has had quite a few. Fortunately, only two fatalities that I am aware of. For that reason alone, everyone one of you should stop flying airplanes because your choice to continue to do so just might kill someone else.

I live in a small town, and I'm a member of a small-town church. Within my church of about 400 parishioners, three have been added to our prayer list since last week. All three are on ventilators with covid and are not expected to survive. All three were fully vaccinated. The families volunteered the vaccination status as if it was to justify that they did what was right. That's sad in itself. I'm not sure of any other details, but I would bet they have underlying conditions. There are no others on our list in such dire situations with covid. More and more info is coming to light that is only solidifying my stance. When you are called, it does not matter whether you wear a mask, get a jab, or whatever. Mr. Franklin said it well, death and taxes my friends.

Vaccine Stance
 

This is the point. We live in a country with a governing document that protects people’s natural freedoms. And with that comes personal responsibility. But nonetheless, we are just human, not angels. We could live in a society which doesn’t put any value to natural given freedoms. But I think we would be dealing with a lot worse things than arguing about forcing people to be vaccinated, assuming we would be allowed to argue publicly.

In this particular case, the vaccination is the answer to those who don’t vaccinate. The vaccine will give you as much protection possible against those who won’t. There is no need to sacrifice, even just a little, the freedoms we enjoy to force or coerce people into injecting themselves against their will when there is a viable alternative for a disease that currently kills 0.2 percent of all people in the US.

PS. There are reports of miscarriages from the vaccine in VAERS.

You wrote.... "But your vaccine resistance isn't about bad data, vaccine efficacy, faulty tests, or a misunderstanding of mRNA. It is about your need to put yourself before anything and everyone. #MEFIRST"


Okay, let's keep this simple. What does me taking this shot have to do with anyone else considering it doesn't stop me from transmitting the disease to others?

It's a simple question.

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Ooh let me guess…. Nothing!!!

My wife’s friend is a labor and delivery nurse and two Sundays ago they had 5 stillborn babies. All to vaccinated mothers. In one day and just at her hospital. You won’t read about that in the news.

It is affecting drivers too. My wife’s sisters ex boyfriends neighbors brothers dad lives in Iceland and he told me that recently there were 11 traffic accidents and all of the drivers involved were vaccinated there as well. It’s time the media starts doing their job and reporting this stuff!

Your response reminds me of discussion with a 13 yo. If your vax works it doesnt matter if I have the vax or bot. Same with the mask.

Question. If world is overpopulated (almost all liberals agree with that) why fight a natural die off so hard?

So True!!! 100%!!!

They wouldn’t report that the amount of birth complications are similar amongst vaccinated people as they were before covid even existed! The humanity of it all!!

The original studies that supported the idea of pregnant women getting the shot recently had to be updated.

They are still using the entire 827 women (that reported completed pregnancy) as the denominator for total women when they calculate their spontaneous abortion rates... Their definition of spontaneous abortion is, "fetal death before 20 weeks."

It will be interesting in further studies when they disclose a denominator.

Given the measures taken to reduce risk in pregnancy, such as not eating raw fish or deli meat, it seems nuts to take a new mRNA treatment with no long term safety information, especially when the known risk from COVID is extremely low for this age cohort.

Original data: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2104983

Article summary(corrected):
https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMe2107070

Correction to article summary:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMx210017

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...583c63ece1.jpg

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I guess I don't see what your post is attempting to illustrate when the article from NEMJ states that the rates of complications in the 35,691 women that participated in the study are the same/similar as years before covid? I DO however agree with with your avoiding deli meats and fish statement as an example of something that is relatively low risk in comparison with a new vaccine. Although, that being said, so far the numbers don't seem to show increased risk with the vaccine. This pregnancy and vaccine data could be something similar to the dying from or with covid debate. Time will tell, if we are not all zombies before then.

As shown by the long term agreement with Atlas to outsource our jobs, the company will do whatever they want, whenever they want, unless we stand up as a unified group against them. If they want to require all employees get vaccinated then they will. If they want you to work more for less then they’ll find a way to make that happen too. They are asking for contract concessions during negotiations which is an insult after a year and a half of record profits when pilots were bending over backwards to help the company and getting quarantined in hotels all over the world. They said they’d evacuate pilots out of foreign countries and pretty quickly stopped following that agreement. Vaccines are coming as are fewer FedEx pilot jobs.

I heard classes are canceled and I had to peel off a for sale sign on the last airplane I flew…I don’t like the long time contract one bit. But take it easy, pal. The sky hasn’t fallen. But the atlas contract does need to be addressed.

You realize that's a massive number... Right? For perspective Cancer probably killed 0.3 or 0.4% of Americans last year. Covid was the #3 cause of death in the US in 2020 and because it didn't exist the previous year it reduced life expectancy by 1.5 years. Everyone doesn't die every year... Very small percentages do especially with population growth. The 2,000 deaths a day right now are completely senseless.

My neighbor who works in the ER as a RN had 3 people turn into lizards last week and 4 people turn into giraffes. The evil media doesn't report this stuff! Unfortunately the media didn't report the tracking portions of the vaccine and now I have an Apple Device on me that tracks everywhere I go. I'm tired of this Communism!

The problem you have is that half us will back the company WHEN they require this. For starters I don't want to pay your insurance costs. I don't want to cover your sick calls. I don't want you giving me a breakthrough infections that I give to my daughter who's sits out school for two weeks.

Vaccine Stance
 

I do think that 99.8% is a massive number. That’s a lot of people (more than about 332,000,000) in the leaf 18 months that haven’t died of and or with COVID.

Many things kill thousands of Americans everyday. And many of those things can be prevented, ie senseless. But we don’t force people to eat a certain diet, have a certain exercise regiment, keep them from driving, etc etc etc. If we did, we could save a whole lot more lives than forcing people to get injected.

The point is that we live in a free country, or at least I’d like to hope we still do. If you want to be protected from COVID by those who don’t vaccinate, it’s simple, get the vaccination. I don’t think we should coerce people to get injected for something that vast overwhelming majority of people (even more so for healthy or people under 70), when people can protect themselves by freely choosing to vaccinate.

You don’t need others to vaccinate to protect yourself. You only need vaccinate yourself. So why force it?

There is a system for self reporting called VAERS. But you are right, majority of media doesn’t cover it.

As for exposure notification on iOS, the federal government hasn’t mandated it. If they did, I wouldn’t say it’s communism. I’d say it’s authoritarianism.

We already pay for each other’s insurance premiums cost. That’s part of how group insurance works. And despite testing, doctor visits, medications, complications, hospitalizations, etc, the premiums are going down. We must collectively be part of the population that isn’t affected as severely from covid as those who are, over 65, and immuno-compromised, or those with specific comorbidities, most of which would medically ground us.

Covering for sick calls is one this that reserve is for. Is that what you are referring to? The ability to call in sick is a contractual and regulatory right. No way around that in whatever context we are discussing.

And what does breakthrough infections have to do with forcing people to be injected? If you are vaccinated, you are protected as much as you can be, regardless of anyone else’s vaccination status.

My response was satirically pointing out that second hand anecdotal stories are rather pointless. Just trying to be funny in what might be the most ridiculous thread on APC (which is quite a feat). I remember being in graduate school and using anecdotal stories in one of my first papers in an attempt to advance my argument…it earned me quite a hole it took the rest of the semester for me to dig out of. Peer reviewed double blind studies carry more weight. I don’t talk to 13 year olds so I can’t comment on your 13 year old discussions comment.

Answer: I’m not sure if the world is overpopulated or not (I’m not a liberal so I don’t spend a lot of time discussing such wacky suggestions). I’m willing to take a firm stance on helping people stay alive if we can and I don’t care who knows it.

Lizards? Giraffes? And here I though we were talking about people turning into pumpkins.

1. So I don't pay your insurance costs that can be avoided with a simple shot. The cost of insurance is going to sky rocket over this and we need different risk pools. Delta understands this. If my rates are around the same for next year then I don't care but if they go up $1000 a month to reflect your risk then I do care. In that case you should pay $2000 extra a month and I should pay close to my current rates.
2. So I don't have to do your work when you're sick.

My neighbor had his DNA changed and turned into a frog. There's a war on for your mind!!!

Sounds good. That is, so long as we also make sure that anyone who smokes pays $4000/month, anyone overweight pays $5000/month, and anyone who ever rides a motorcycle pays $6000/month. I think I might like this wonderful new authoritarian world we're creating!

As soon as there's a shot that prevents those things, I agree. Except for the motorcycles - that can apply now if you're not wearing a helmet.

All of those things are easily preventable without a shot so I don't see your point. We should definitely incorporate this into our health care premiums!

Insurance should be risk based. You live in a hurricane corridor you should pay more for home insurance. You smoke you pay more for life insurance and you should pay more for health insurance.

Apparently the free market is authoritarian. Oh wait, if you don’t want to pay more you can “choose” to quit smoking or you can “choose” to move or you can “choose” to get a shot. I guess it’s all about actuaries measuring risk and people making choices…also known as authoritarianism.

Wait a second, maybe freedom of choice is only a good thing when there aren’t financial consequences that I agree with.

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. If we're worried about our health care premiums rising because of those anti vaxxers, I think it's about time we force everyone else making all these bad decisions to pay their fair share!

Agree 100%

Define bad decisions.

Anything that causes health care premiums to rise, apparently? If we want to keep this idea going, we should also incorporate how many miles each individual drives per year, how much alcohol they drink, and whether they occasionally participate in risky activities like skiing or scuba diving. The more I think about this the more I love it! It's all in the name of keeping our costs down, no matter the... well... cost.

you sound like lots of fun. You a clipboard pilot?

Perfectly said. It’s extraordinary to me how proud people are of their complete selfishness, wearing it like a badge of honor, spouting out about freedom, so many excuses and rationalizations. I joined the military with a commitment to do what was needed to protect the country, to sacrifice my life if needed, I can’t imagine making such a fuss about a life-saving vaccine already given to billions.

And I am terribly sorry about your families loss.

I would probably incorporate living in the greater Memphis area as a high risk decision as well.

[QUOTE=busdriver12;3299624]Perfectly said. It’s extraordinary to me how proud people are of their complete selfishness, wearing it like a badge of honor, spouting out about freedom, so many excuses and rationalizations. I joined the military with a commitment to do what was needed to protect the country, to sacrifice my life if needed, I can’t imagine making such a fuss about a life-saving vaccine already given to billions.

It is experimental gene therapy. Period! Every day more info comes out on how the numbers were exaggerated to cause mass fear. Now the FDA just granted the new FDA-approved vaccines protection from lawsuits. This has never happened before. When a drug is approved, it is deemed safe and therefore it is open to litigation if someone suffers a harmful side effect. Not this drug. Get the shot and develop one of the many FAA grounding side effects, suck it up. Come on save the world, join the experiment and save the .05% that are at risk.

Again, please explain to me how the non-vaxed are killing the vaxed? It is more truthful to say that the variants are coming from the vaccinated. The unvaxed get the virus and their immune system either kills it, or they die. The vaccinated get the virus and their immune system was trained to ignore the symptoms and stop the body's response to the virus. The virus is then free to grow and mutate. Come on guys, you got a shot and you don't even understand how it works. That is why the vaccinated still must wear a mask, and physically distance, and all the other protocols. Hospitals in my state are still laying off workers due to lack of need.

Those things were here before Covid and the insurance costs were reasonable. Not many of us smoke and I don't. I'm fine with that but that's not what driving up costs. Covid infections are what has changed and are driving up costs. I don't want to pay for your Covid infection. You should pay for that.