Dakota

...........TROLL!

TonyC

One of the most common and enduring criticisms of our contracts has been the vague language that leads us to believe it says one thing before we vote on the TA only to learn that The Company intended it to mean something else entirely, and it takes losing a grievance to determine which meaning prevails. Even when we think the language is very clear and precise, "black and white," we often realize too late that we are completely wrong.

Such is the case with NoBrainAllDrool. He suffers from the same malady that allows us to get in those frustrating situations -- he lacks critical reading skills. He thinks he saw A and B plan when he read the Openers Document, and many union communications since then, but such references simply do not exist.

Let's take a look at some language, where it originated, and what it means.

"A" Plan is an airline industry term which we use to refer to the Defined Benefit portion of our retirement benefit. Formulas for determining the benefit vary from one airline to another, but they generally result in determining an amount of money which the retiree will receive from their former employer on a regular basis for the rest of their life.

"B" Plan is another airline industry term which we use to refer to the Defined Contribution portion of our retirement benefit. Again, formulas and schemes vary from one airline to another, but they generally result in a certain amount of money being contributed on a regular basis to a fund controlled by the pilot. The pilot is allowed to make choices in investing those funds, and spending those funds. Upon retirement, employer contributions are discontinued, and it is possible for the pilot to deplete the funds quickly, or to make them last for a long time, and funds remaining after the pilot's death pass to the pilot's estate.

We pilots like acronyms, so the terms "A" Plan and "B" Plan are often used interchangeably with "Defined Benefit" and "Defined Contribution", but they're not equivalent. Defined Benefit is an IRS term, and it includes a variety of retirement schemes, including our "A" Plan. Likewise, Defined Contribution is another IRS term, and it includes a variety of retirement schemes, including our "B" Plan.

Here's a twist you might not have seen coming. Read through Section 28 of our CBA (RETIREMENT (PENSION BENEFITS)) and you won't find "A" Plan or "B" Plan, and you won't find "Defined Benefit" or "Defined Contribution," except for a reference to expenses related to the Defined Contribution Plan. What you'll find in the CBA is "Pension Plan" and "Pilots' Money Purchase Pension Plan (PMPPP)." The former is a Defined Benefit Plan that we typically refer to as our "A" Plan, and the latter is a Defined Contribution Plan that we typically refer to as our "B" Plan.

Now, why does this look at the language matter? Well, it's because we get burned when we think the language says one thing when it actually means another. Precise language is our best weapon against such misunderstandings.

So, let's go back to NoBrain's assertion that the Union is fighting to improve our "A" Plan. That's not what the Openers document or any communications since have said. It says we'll improve the Defined Benefit portion of our retirement benefit. Remember, while all squares are rectangles, all rectangles are NOT squares. Likewise, all "A" Plans are Defined Benefit plans, yet all Defined Benefit Plans are not "A" Plans, and certainly not the Pension Plan in our current CBA. So, when the MEC and the Negotiating Committee say they want to improve our Defined Benefit, we really have no way of knowing exactly what they mean. For the past 5 years they have promoted nothing other than a Variable Benefit Plan, which they now proclaim to be a Defined Benefit Plan, so why should we think they mean anything other than a Variable Benefit Plan? Why should we think they want to improve our "A" Plan if they refuse to say so, or our CBA "Pension Plan" when they continue to hide their plan behind a fake wall of secrecy?


Nobody likes to be fooled by sleight of hand, especially when it's being done by their own union.






I think I have volunteered enough times to have earned the right to ask you this. Since you use it as a personal attack so often, please tell us how you're volunteering now, apart from being the Kirby Cheerleader here?

Oh, and you know what our "retirement specialist" does for a living? HINT: It requires an ATP.






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kwri10s

So good to have you back on the boards Tony.

TonyC

It makes a difference if you have to work harder and longer to achieve the maximum quantity of bread.


With our "A" Plan, that computation is simple. We each receive a notice each year which updates the amount of bread we've earned so far.

With the Variable Benefit Plan, it is not possible to determine the minimum amount of bread you will receive since it depends on how much you will work each year, and how many years you will work. Oh, and how well the stock market is doing the year you retire. It, umm, varies.






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TonyC

Yeah, it's pretty crusty. So are the tires on my truck. Even so, wheels seem to work better than anything else I can think of to attach to the axles. May be old, but the wheel still holds a decided advantage over other shapes when it comes to keeping the vehicle mobile and the ride comfortable.




Hey, I'm all in with that idea. Remove the FAE Cap and we have a permanent fix. Everyone will have a 50% retirement up to the IRS limit, which is adjusted for inflation every year. Win, win.


While we're at it, what would you think about not having to renegotiate pay rates every friggin contract?

By the way, when MEC and Negotiating Committee Communications use the word "durable" in describing the Retirement Benefits they're seeking, that's what they mean -- they don't want to have to negotiate retirement benefits ever again. That's more code language for a variable benefit plan.






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TonyC

Can you refer me to the "union update" or podcast or pub call that gave you that impression? I'll bet my next paycheck our Negotiating Committee did NOT ask for the "max IRS limit A plan,"
and I've not read nor heard anything that remotely resembles that. When they do, I will be their biggest cheerleader.

To be pedantic, we could in fact be further apart if we DID indeed ask for the IRS maximum. Also, we should not be satisfied with "some improvements." A 40% "A" Plan would constitute "some" improvements, but would fall far, far short of anything we should accept.






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Noworkallplay

The good thing is you get the same amount of votes as me. We will all have different opinions on various topics. Once an agreement is brought to us I will educate myself and make a decision. Based upon the openers I am optimistic. I’m not so optimistic with the company and part of our pilots are not doing our part to apply that pressure. Sad thing is it seems to be the senior group as numerous people have pointed out. Most likely the same group that failed us in previous bargaining. Greed is a nasty thing to kick and the company knows it.

Shaman

Bump

You want to know how we got here? Read through this thread and realize we've been in the dark and mislead. The secrecy wasn't about negotiating in public or any other such nonsense. It was because they all knew that it would not poll well enough and here we are.

Slow clap for all the supporters you should be so proud.

Stan446

Take a break, Its Father's Day. Enjoy!

Merle Haggard

You know what else we got here? Proof that Tony understood where this was all headed two years ago and the MEC-at-large still doesn't understand it in real time.