Base transfers
12-11-2022 | 06:29 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,813
Likes: 0
You are right that over half our pilot force wasn’t here in 2015. Let’s hope we don’t make the same mistake our predecessors did. Sadly I agree with you that most have chosen dollars over QOL life though and that is even more evident by our “focused negotiations”. How’s that going for us?
There are a few exaggerations in KC’s post but not by much.
Yes, we have R24 lines (24hr callout) but we all know those aren’t being used as originally intended. Check any schedule for someone with R24 and you’ll wanna throw up all over yourself. Hotel standby (1.5hr call out) is the norm. If not, the chances are you’ll get assigned a trip fairly far out. Then nothing on day two and another trip on day 3. So you can’t really commute home so you end up at a hotel/Crashpad just as if you had been on short call. Too many single day trips are assigned to R24 pilots and it makes the lines unbearable. I avoid them at all costs. They are not the good deal that they sound.
I also don’t get the 17% income replacement ratio, but I welcome KC to show his math. There is no doubt that the pension is dying though. As it is not inflation protected the worth of the pension today, is NOT what it will be in 10, 20, or 40 years from now.
As to the FAR limit thing, a huge problem is that not enough pilots call in “fatigued” when they really should. You can see a train wreck coming and try to tell CRS “this isn’t gonna work”. They don’t care. They will force you into a fatigue call and then your actions are scrutinized to see if you’ll get paid or not.
I have called in fatigued and I can tell you the very first question that was asked was “when will you be ready to go?” I have no idea! In the meantime as I’m trying to sleep and recover they revise the schedule to be even worse than it was before. We had to complain multiple times until an acceptable solution was found.
The international extension time is why I personally avoid international trips. My spouse counts on me being home when I say I’ll be home. I can’t take the risk that I need to bid around an event by three days just because my trip is international.
I’ll add another head scratcher for me. Is it not true that at other airlines your trip can pass through base and you’re still on the same trip? That’s not the case here. If you touch base the trip is over.
If you have all hub turns (day or night) through your base those are all individual trips. Your pay (and per diem) stop while you are in base. Doing PM hub turns through MEM? That could be up to a 6 hr sit where you aren’t getting paid, no per diem, the “cafeteria” is a joke, and your catering parameters were based on each individual trip so you also don’t get catering. If you flew the exact same trip but turned through IND instead of MEM you would continue to get paid, get per diem, AND get catering. If you want to eat that catering or not is a whole different story.
Ok, now for one thing I do like…kinda. Deadheads and the ability to deviate potentially cutting time off your trip. We also keep all the airline miles so it can mean you get status. Deviating doesn’t come without risks though. If you deviate on the front end you have ZERO protections if something goes sideways. So plan accordingly. Also it often appears that the company goes hunting for flights where the accepted fare is completely unrealistic. That means if you don’t have the deviation bank you may not be able to get there from where you are. There are also a bunch of rules of HOW you can use the bank, which make no sense as to why the company would care, that can really limit you. Finally with the bank, as it stands the funds are no going away but that is under the COVID MOU and could go away at any time unless our new contract solidifies that the current procedures stay.
Probation is a whole different animal here. They company can and will fire you. While I wouldn’t call it fear it does seem like probationary pilots have to tread very very lightly here. I don’t get the impression it’s quite as harsh at the Legacy’s.
I know personally I came here over a Legacy because of how much FedEx had been talked up. That and what I was told about it being commuter friendly. I’ve found that what I was sold is also a “bunch of half truths”.
I didn’t know if I was ready to move to a Legacy base. Sure you can commute to them but it seemed to me that the commuters I knew at other airlines had it much rougher. I do still believe that FedEx is the best option if you’re going to commute. I’d say you should think really hard about it though because in reality FedEx is great if you are a commuter AND live near a large airline hub where you can get cheap, direct flights for your deadheads. Otherwise, a two leg deviation is still a two leg trip. See my thoughts on front end deadheads above.
You can do all the research you want but the simple reality is there is no way you can understand all the ins and outs before deciding. We do have a fair number of pilots who came over from Legacy’s so I’d love to hear what it was they disliked so much over there that made them switch over.
The knock on too many military folks isn’t an anti-military thing. It’s more that you don’t know what you don’t know. The majority of our pilots don’t know our own contract so how can they possibly know others and demand that we have similar items? They see it as life is better than it had been working for Uncle Sam and that’s as far as it goes.
There are a few exaggerations in KC’s post but not by much.
Yes, we have R24 lines (24hr callout) but we all know those aren’t being used as originally intended. Check any schedule for someone with R24 and you’ll wanna throw up all over yourself. Hotel standby (1.5hr call out) is the norm. If not, the chances are you’ll get assigned a trip fairly far out. Then nothing on day two and another trip on day 3. So you can’t really commute home so you end up at a hotel/Crashpad just as if you had been on short call. Too many single day trips are assigned to R24 pilots and it makes the lines unbearable. I avoid them at all costs. They are not the good deal that they sound.
I also don’t get the 17% income replacement ratio, but I welcome KC to show his math. There is no doubt that the pension is dying though. As it is not inflation protected the worth of the pension today, is NOT what it will be in 10, 20, or 40 years from now.
As to the FAR limit thing, a huge problem is that not enough pilots call in “fatigued” when they really should. You can see a train wreck coming and try to tell CRS “this isn’t gonna work”. They don’t care. They will force you into a fatigue call and then your actions are scrutinized to see if you’ll get paid or not.
I have called in fatigued and I can tell you the very first question that was asked was “when will you be ready to go?” I have no idea! In the meantime as I’m trying to sleep and recover they revise the schedule to be even worse than it was before. We had to complain multiple times until an acceptable solution was found.
The international extension time is why I personally avoid international trips. My spouse counts on me being home when I say I’ll be home. I can’t take the risk that I need to bid around an event by three days just because my trip is international.
I’ll add another head scratcher for me. Is it not true that at other airlines your trip can pass through base and you’re still on the same trip? That’s not the case here. If you touch base the trip is over.
If you have all hub turns (day or night) through your base those are all individual trips. Your pay (and per diem) stop while you are in base. Doing PM hub turns through MEM? That could be up to a 6 hr sit where you aren’t getting paid, no per diem, the “cafeteria” is a joke, and your catering parameters were based on each individual trip so you also don’t get catering. If you flew the exact same trip but turned through IND instead of MEM you would continue to get paid, get per diem, AND get catering. If you want to eat that catering or not is a whole different story.
Ok, now for one thing I do like…kinda. Deadheads and the ability to deviate potentially cutting time off your trip. We also keep all the airline miles so it can mean you get status. Deviating doesn’t come without risks though. If you deviate on the front end you have ZERO protections if something goes sideways. So plan accordingly. Also it often appears that the company goes hunting for flights where the accepted fare is completely unrealistic. That means if you don’t have the deviation bank you may not be able to get there from where you are. There are also a bunch of rules of HOW you can use the bank, which make no sense as to why the company would care, that can really limit you. Finally with the bank, as it stands the funds are no going away but that is under the COVID MOU and could go away at any time unless our new contract solidifies that the current procedures stay.
Probation is a whole different animal here. They company can and will fire you. While I wouldn’t call it fear it does seem like probationary pilots have to tread very very lightly here. I don’t get the impression it’s quite as harsh at the Legacy’s.
I know personally I came here over a Legacy because of how much FedEx had been talked up. That and what I was told about it being commuter friendly. I’ve found that what I was sold is also a “bunch of half truths”.
I didn’t know if I was ready to move to a Legacy base. Sure you can commute to them but it seemed to me that the commuters I knew at other airlines had it much rougher. I do still believe that FedEx is the best option if you’re going to commute. I’d say you should think really hard about it though because in reality FedEx is great if you are a commuter AND live near a large airline hub where you can get cheap, direct flights for your deadheads. Otherwise, a two leg deviation is still a two leg trip. See my thoughts on front end deadheads above.
You can do all the research you want but the simple reality is there is no way you can understand all the ins and outs before deciding. We do have a fair number of pilots who came over from Legacy’s so I’d love to hear what it was they disliked so much over there that made them switch over.
The knock on too many military folks isn’t an anti-military thing. It’s more that you don’t know what you don’t know. The majority of our pilots don’t know our own contract so how can they possibly know others and demand that we have similar items? They see it as life is better than it had been working for Uncle Sam and that’s as far as it goes.
I'll add that some of our bases have 3 hour reserve call out, but I have never done that, so I don't know how well it works. R24 isn't used as it was intended and we haven't fixed it in over 20 years.
12-11-2022 | 08:37 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 623
Likes: 0
From: E170 CA/LCA
You are right that over half our pilot force wasn’t here in 2015. Let’s hope we don’t make the same mistake our predecessors did. Sadly I agree with you that most have chosen dollars over QOL life though and that is even more evident by our “focused negotiations”. How’s that going for us?
There are a few exaggerations in KC’s post but not by much.
Yes, we have R24 lines (24hr callout) but we all know those aren’t being used as originally intended. Check any schedule for someone with R24 and you’ll wanna throw up all over yourself. Hotel standby (1.5hr call out) is the norm. If not, the chances are you’ll get assigned a trip fairly far out. Then nothing on day two and another trip on day 3. So you can’t really commute home so you end up at a hotel/Crashpad just as if you had been on short call. Too many single day trips are assigned to R24 pilots and it makes the lines unbearable. I avoid them at all costs. They are not the good deal that they sound.
I also don’t get the 17% income replacement ratio, but I welcome KC to show his math. There is no doubt that the pension is dying though. As it is not inflation protected the worth of the pension today, is NOT what it will be in 10, 20, or 40 years from now.
As to the FAR limit thing, a huge problem is that not enough pilots call in “fatigued” when they really should. You can see a train wreck coming and try to tell CRS “this isn’t gonna work”. They don’t care. They will force you into a fatigue call and then your actions are scrutinized to see if you’ll get paid or not.
I have called in fatigued and I can tell you the very first question that was asked was “when will you be ready to go?” I have no idea! In the meantime as I’m trying to sleep and recover they revise the schedule to be even worse than it was before. We had to complain multiple times until an acceptable solution was found.
The international extension time is why I personally avoid international trips. My spouse counts on me being home when I say I’ll be home. I can’t take the risk that I need to bid around an event by three days just because my trip is international.
I’ll add another head scratcher for me. Is it not true that at other airlines your trip can pass through base and you’re still on the same trip? That’s not the case here. If you touch base the trip is over.
If you have all hub turns (day or night) through your base those are all individual trips. Your pay (and per diem) stop while you are in base. Doing PM hub turns through MEM? That could be up to a 6 hr sit where you aren’t getting paid, no per diem, the “cafeteria” is a joke, and your catering parameters were based on each individual trip so you also don’t get catering. If you flew the exact same trip but turned through IND instead of MEM you would continue to get paid, get per diem, AND get catering. If you want to eat that catering or not is a whole different story.
Ok, now for one thing I do like…kinda. Deadheads and the ability to deviate potentially cutting time off your trip. We also keep all the airline miles so it can mean you get status. Deviating doesn’t come without risks though. If you deviate on the front end you have ZERO protections if something goes sideways. So plan accordingly. Also it often appears that the company goes hunting for flights where the accepted fare is completely unrealistic. That means if you don’t have the deviation bank you may not be able to get there from where you are. There are also a bunch of rules of HOW you can use the bank, which make no sense as to why the company would care, that can really limit you. Finally with the bank, as it stands the funds are no going away but that is under the COVID MOU and could go away at any time unless our new contract solidifies that the current procedures stay.
Probation is a whole different animal here. They company can and will fire you. While I wouldn’t call it fear it does seem like probationary pilots have to tread very very lightly here. I don’t get the impression it’s quite as harsh at the Legacy’s.
I know personally I came here over a Legacy because of how much FedEx had been talked up. That and what I was told about it being commuter friendly. I’ve found that what I was sold is also a “bunch of half truths”.
I didn’t know if I was ready to move to a Legacy base. Sure you can commute to them but it seemed to me that the commuters I knew at other airlines had it much rougher. I do still believe that FedEx is the best option if you’re going to commute. I’d say you should think really hard about it though because in reality FedEx is great if you are a commuter AND live near a large airline hub where you can get cheap, direct flights for your deadheads. Otherwise, a two leg deviation is still a two leg trip. See my thoughts on front end deadheads above.
You can do all the research you want but the simple reality is there is no way you can understand all the ins and outs before deciding. We do have a fair number of pilots who came over from Legacy’s so I’d love to hear what it was they disliked so much over there that made them switch over.
The knock on too many military folks isn’t an anti-military thing. It’s more that you don’t know what you don’t know. The majority of our pilots don’t know our own contract so how can they possibly know others and demand that we have similar items? They see it as life is better than it had been working for Uncle Sam and that’s as far as it goes.
There are a few exaggerations in KC’s post but not by much.
Yes, we have R24 lines (24hr callout) but we all know those aren’t being used as originally intended. Check any schedule for someone with R24 and you’ll wanna throw up all over yourself. Hotel standby (1.5hr call out) is the norm. If not, the chances are you’ll get assigned a trip fairly far out. Then nothing on day two and another trip on day 3. So you can’t really commute home so you end up at a hotel/Crashpad just as if you had been on short call. Too many single day trips are assigned to R24 pilots and it makes the lines unbearable. I avoid them at all costs. They are not the good deal that they sound.
I also don’t get the 17% income replacement ratio, but I welcome KC to show his math. There is no doubt that the pension is dying though. As it is not inflation protected the worth of the pension today, is NOT what it will be in 10, 20, or 40 years from now.
As to the FAR limit thing, a huge problem is that not enough pilots call in “fatigued” when they really should. You can see a train wreck coming and try to tell CRS “this isn’t gonna work”. They don’t care. They will force you into a fatigue call and then your actions are scrutinized to see if you’ll get paid or not.
I have called in fatigued and I can tell you the very first question that was asked was “when will you be ready to go?” I have no idea! In the meantime as I’m trying to sleep and recover they revise the schedule to be even worse than it was before. We had to complain multiple times until an acceptable solution was found.
The international extension time is why I personally avoid international trips. My spouse counts on me being home when I say I’ll be home. I can’t take the risk that I need to bid around an event by three days just because my trip is international.
I’ll add another head scratcher for me. Is it not true that at other airlines your trip can pass through base and you’re still on the same trip? That’s not the case here. If you touch base the trip is over.
If you have all hub turns (day or night) through your base those are all individual trips. Your pay (and per diem) stop while you are in base. Doing PM hub turns through MEM? That could be up to a 6 hr sit where you aren’t getting paid, no per diem, the “cafeteria” is a joke, and your catering parameters were based on each individual trip so you also don’t get catering. If you flew the exact same trip but turned through IND instead of MEM you would continue to get paid, get per diem, AND get catering. If you want to eat that catering or not is a whole different story.
Ok, now for one thing I do like…kinda. Deadheads and the ability to deviate potentially cutting time off your trip. We also keep all the airline miles so it can mean you get status. Deviating doesn’t come without risks though. If you deviate on the front end you have ZERO protections if something goes sideways. So plan accordingly. Also it often appears that the company goes hunting for flights where the accepted fare is completely unrealistic. That means if you don’t have the deviation bank you may not be able to get there from where you are. There are also a bunch of rules of HOW you can use the bank, which make no sense as to why the company would care, that can really limit you. Finally with the bank, as it stands the funds are no going away but that is under the COVID MOU and could go away at any time unless our new contract solidifies that the current procedures stay.
Probation is a whole different animal here. They company can and will fire you. While I wouldn’t call it fear it does seem like probationary pilots have to tread very very lightly here. I don’t get the impression it’s quite as harsh at the Legacy’s.
I know personally I came here over a Legacy because of how much FedEx had been talked up. That and what I was told about it being commuter friendly. I’ve found that what I was sold is also a “bunch of half truths”.
I didn’t know if I was ready to move to a Legacy base. Sure you can commute to them but it seemed to me that the commuters I knew at other airlines had it much rougher. I do still believe that FedEx is the best option if you’re going to commute. I’d say you should think really hard about it though because in reality FedEx is great if you are a commuter AND live near a large airline hub where you can get cheap, direct flights for your deadheads. Otherwise, a two leg deviation is still a two leg trip. See my thoughts on front end deadheads above.
You can do all the research you want but the simple reality is there is no way you can understand all the ins and outs before deciding. We do have a fair number of pilots who came over from Legacy’s so I’d love to hear what it was they disliked so much over there that made them switch over.
The knock on too many military folks isn’t an anti-military thing. It’s more that you don’t know what you don’t know. The majority of our pilots don’t know our own contract so how can they possibly know others and demand that we have similar items? They see it as life is better than it had been working for Uncle Sam and that’s as far as it goes.
I came from a legacy based in ATL and this is pretty good gouge.
12-11-2022 | 08:45 AM
#43
On Reserve
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
So a few questions then:
1. Would you do it again?
2. What drove your decision to make the move?
3. Now that you’ve seen both what specific items do you like better and worse at each?
Not many people get to see both sides of the equation. Everything people know comes from “talking to their bros” not realizing that person is probably looking through rose colored glasses and failing to give the full story.
As my spouse once asked “do you think everyone you talk to is just telling you all the good parts only so that you go there and their seniority goes up as a result?”
12-11-2022 | 08:53 AM
#45
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
So a few questions then:
1. Would you do it again?
2. What drove your decision to make the move?
3. Now that you’ve seen both what specific items do you like better and worse at each?
Not many people get to see both sides of the equation. Everything people know comes from “talking to their bros” not realizing that person is probably looking through rose colored glasses and failing to give the full story.
As my spouse once asked “do you think everyone you talk to is just telling you all the good parts only so that you go there and their seniority goes up as a result?”
1. Would you do it again?
2. What drove your decision to make the move?
3. Now that you’ve seen both what specific items do you like better and worse at each?
Not many people get to see both sides of the equation. Everything people know comes from “talking to their bros” not realizing that person is probably looking through rose colored glasses and failing to give the full story.
As my spouse once asked “do you think everyone you talk to is just telling you all the good parts only so that you go there and their seniority goes up as a result?”
12-11-2022 | 09:39 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 623
Likes: 0
From: E170 CA/LCA
So a few questions then:
1. Would you do it again?
2. What drove your decision to make the move?
3. Now that you’ve seen both what specific items do you like better and worse at each?
Not many people get to see both sides of the equation. Everything people know comes from “talking to their bros” not realizing that person is probably looking through rose colored glasses and failing to give the full story.
As my spouse once asked “do you think everyone you talk to is just telling you all the good parts only so that you go there and their seniority goes up as a result?”
1. Would you do it again?
2. What drove your decision to make the move?
3. Now that you’ve seen both what specific items do you like better and worse at each?
Not many people get to see both sides of the equation. Everything people know comes from “talking to their bros” not realizing that person is probably looking through rose colored glasses and failing to give the full story.
As my spouse once asked “do you think everyone you talk to is just telling you all the good parts only so that you go there and their seniority goes up as a result?”
1. Yes, however I have yet to see the real benefit from coming here since I left Delta to be based at home in IND. Due to the way new hire classes work you can be stuck in a base and equipment you don’t want for years. There has been zero communication on when the next bid will be so I am just hanging out in Memphis on the 767 for now.
2. See number 1 and also the percentage of widebodies, non bankruptcy era retirement, and vacation benefit.
3. Delta management (outside of Covid times) seems to have a little bit better pulse on what the pilot group wants, FedEx management seems to be content with status quo because we’re heading into a slowdown and they never have a shortage of applicants (this could change if we don’t get on par with the pax carriers). We are now one of the lowest paid first year pilots (not that it is a huge metric to make a decision on for a 30+ year career) but also our widebody pay is quickly falling FAR behind the competition. Our pension (one of the reasons I came here) is eroding faster than ever with some of the highest inflation in 30 years and our B fund is now half of what Delta will have. I enjoyed flying at Delta and the passengers and flight attendants didn’t bother me, that wasn’t a motivating factor to leave (although you will never hear the end of how awesome it is we don’t have to deal with them). Both companies have wide varieties of flying so everyone can find something that they enjoy (with a little seniority). I did not leave Delta because I didn’t enjoy Delta, I left due to what FedEx has to offer for the rest of my career that Delta did not (driving to work). Both great companies and both will afford great lifestyles.
If anyone has specific questions feel free to PM me.
12-11-2022 | 10:36 AM
#47
On Reserve
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
1. Yes, however I have yet to see the real benefit from coming here since I left Delta to be based at home in IND. Due to the way new hire classes work you can be stuck in a base and equipment you don’t want for years. There has been zero communication on when the next bid will be so I am just hanging out in Memphis on the 767 for now.
2. See number 1 and also the percentage of widebodies, non bankruptcy era retirement, and vacation benefit.
2. See number 1 and also the percentage of widebodies, non bankruptcy era retirement, and vacation benefit.
Any other takers for their experience?
12-11-2022 | 10:37 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,201
Likes: 32
From: 4A2FU
Nice post, but a lot of half truths. A large portion of our pilots have been hired since the 2015 contract was ratified. These same pilots claim to know what's best and have done a lot of research. If they were so smart, why did they choose to come to an inferior airline? These same pilots were bragging just a few years ago about their large pay checks. They were claiming that a 2nd year FO could easily clear over $300K. When pay rates were pointed out, they said that you just have to know how to use the contract. We haven't changed contracts, so why was it so good before, but now it is and has been and inferior contract.
I honestly didn’t see a single half truth in his post…
Honestly you keep downtrodding these pilots that have come here, mocking them, writing in a condescending prose that “they think they know what’s best and did a lot of research” and that “if they were so smart, why did they come here”
Well, a lot of them were only told the good about FedEx, and then also served a bunch of koolaid too. Then they got here and were shocked at how bad some aspects of our contract are.
I’ve been tracking this sub-forum for well over a decade and until this thread, there really hasn’t been a lot of discussion on just how bad the work rules are at FedEx until now. Are we as bad as ATI or other ACMI carriers? Absolutely not. But when it comes to work rules, we are nowhere near as good as the legacy carriers in most areas besides line bidding and vacation. This is pretty unacceptable considering we’ve never been through bankruptcy and we generate an epic amount of revenue per flight compared to a legacy carrier.
Now for some of your exaggerations. First, not every trip can be extended by 84 hours.
nobody said every trip, I just gave the maximum number, and 84hrs is not an exaggeration. I’ve had extensions over 80hrs 3 times this year. That’s 10 days of precious time off that have been taken from me.
In fact, only trips scheduled to international parameters can be extended by that much. Domestic trips can be extended by 36 hours.
Which is still awful. 36hrs of obligation to cover for inadequate staffing/planning is still ridiculous. 12 or 14 hours (enough to be released into rest and then operate back to base) should be the absolute max for domestic. 36 would be barely ok for international.
FedEx can't make you work to FAR limits. Even during an operational emergency, you can still say enough.
Only if you call in fatigued. Then you get to deal with the DO trying to coax you into flying anyway. And then if you still manage to man up and say no, you have to see if your fatigue report gets approved for pay.
Every reserve day at FedEx isn't a 1.5 hour call out.
For the majority of reservists, it is. Exception being the small amount of pilots in lax/oak/anc/cgn. And in MEM they can make you do a 1hr callout… talk about a short short short leash.
On the other hand: All reserve at UA is 12hrs unless converted to short call, they’re probably going to be getting rid of their ASTBY on their next contract, and Delta is gonna be 18hrs if their TA passes…
The A plan isn't a 17% income replacement ratio unless you are choosing to work a lot of extra. For it to be a 17% income replacement ratio, you would have to be making over $764K a year while our highest pay rate is $335.56.
For anyone not over 45 getting hired here today, the A plan is likely to only be worth 17% or less of their income at 60 years old. But agree your math checks for someone retiring today. The A plan cap needs to be adjusted back to above 50% income replacement like it was in 1999 when this company was even less efficient, less profitable, and had 3 pilots to pay on most of the airplanes.
Our contract needs improvement. The question is, are we willing to fight for it. Are you going to chase dollars, or quality of life? It seems to me, most have chosen dollars.
We can absolutely get dollars and quality of life without conceding anything like we have for the past 20 years. Delta has just proven despite their poor company financials that getting both without concessions is 100% attainable.
12-11-2022 | 01:32 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,813
Likes: 0
Honestly you keep downtrodding these pilots that have come here, mocking them, writing in a condescending prose that “they think they know what’s best and did a lot of research” and that “if they were so smart, why did they come here”
Well, a lot of them were only told the good about FedEx, and then also served a bunch of koolaid too. Then they got here and were shocked at how bad some aspects of our contract are.
Honestly you keep downtrodding these pilots that have come here, mocking them, writing in a condescending prose that “they think they know what’s best and did a lot of research” and that “if they were so smart, why did they come here”
Well, a lot of them were only told the good about FedEx, and then also served a bunch of koolaid too. Then they got here and were shocked at how bad some aspects of our contract are.
Again, if you were talking to your friends about coming here and didn't ask to look at the contract, that is your fault. Blaming military pilots because they didn't see how good the contracts were at other airlines is simply deflecting your own deficiencies. So, we can talk about the deficiencies in our contract without casting blame, or we can continue arguing about who insulted whom.
I’ve been tracking this sub-forum for well over a decade and until this thread, there really hasn’t been a lot of discussion on just how bad the work rules are at FedEx until now. Are we as bad as ATI or other ACMI carriers? Absolutely not. But when it comes to work rules, we are nowhere near as good as the legacy carriers in most areas besides line bidding and vacation. This is pretty unacceptable considering we’ve never been through bankruptcy and we generate an epic amount of revenue per flight compared to a legacy carrier.
I’ve been tracking this sub-forum for well over a decade and until this thread, there really hasn’t been a lot of discussion on just how bad the work rules are at FedEx until now. Are we as bad as ATI or other ACMI carriers? Absolutely not. But when it comes to work rules, we are nowhere near as good as the legacy carriers in most areas besides line bidding and vacation. This is pretty unacceptable considering we’ve never been through bankruptcy and we generate an epic amount of revenue per flight compared to a legacy carrier.
nobody said every trip, I just gave the maximum number, and 84hrs is not an exaggeration. I’ve had extensions over 80hrs 3 times this year. That’s 10 days of precious time off that have been taken from me.
Which is still awful. 36hrs of obligation to cover for inadequate staffing/planning is still ridiculous. 12 or 14 hours (enough to be released into rest and then operate back to base) should be the absolute max for domestic. 36 would be barely ok for international.
Only if you call in fatigued. Then you get to deal with the DO trying to coax you into flying anyway. And then if you still manage to man up and say no, you have to see if your fatigue report gets approved for pay.
For the majority of reservists, it is. Exception being the small amount of pilots in lax/oak/anc/cgn. And in MEM they can make you do a 1hr callout… talk about a short short short leash.
On the other hand: All reserve at UA is 12hrs unless converted to short call, they’re probably going to be getting rid of their ASTBY on their next contract, and Delta is gonna be 18hrs if their TA passes…
For anyone not over 45 getting hired here today, the A plan is likely to only be worth 17% or less of their income at 60 years old. But agree your math checks for someone retiring today. The A plan cap needs to be adjusted back to above 50% income replacement like it was in 1999 when this company was even less efficient, less profitable, and had 3 pilots to pay on most of the airplanes.
It doesn’t need to be “either dollars or QOL”
We can absolutely get dollars and quality of life without conceding anything like we have for the past 20 years. Delta has just proven despite their poor company financials that getting both without concessions is 100% attainable.
nobody said every trip, I just gave the maximum number, and 84hrs is not an exaggeration. I’ve had extensions over 80hrs 3 times this year. That’s 10 days of precious time off that have been taken from me.
Which is still awful. 36hrs of obligation to cover for inadequate staffing/planning is still ridiculous. 12 or 14 hours (enough to be released into rest and then operate back to base) should be the absolute max for domestic. 36 would be barely ok for international.
Only if you call in fatigued. Then you get to deal with the DO trying to coax you into flying anyway. And then if you still manage to man up and say no, you have to see if your fatigue report gets approved for pay.
For the majority of reservists, it is. Exception being the small amount of pilots in lax/oak/anc/cgn. And in MEM they can make you do a 1hr callout… talk about a short short short leash.
On the other hand: All reserve at UA is 12hrs unless converted to short call, they’re probably going to be getting rid of their ASTBY on their next contract, and Delta is gonna be 18hrs if their TA passes…
For anyone not over 45 getting hired here today, the A plan is likely to only be worth 17% or less of their income at 60 years old. But agree your math checks for someone retiring today. The A plan cap needs to be adjusted back to above 50% income replacement like it was in 1999 when this company was even less efficient, less profitable, and had 3 pilots to pay on most of the airplanes.
It doesn’t need to be “either dollars or QOL”
We can absolutely get dollars and quality of life without conceding anything like we have for the past 20 years. Delta has just proven despite their poor company financials that getting both without concessions is 100% attainable.
Above you complained about the fatigue call. Well yes, you have to man up and call in fatigued if you truly are fatigued. If you are afraid of the DO, then you have other issues. I have done it many times, and it really is no big deal. As far as pay goes, the FRMG has been fairly consistent in paying pilots for their fatigue calls. You do realize that it comes out of your sick bank first, and then after the FRMG reviews that situation, your bank can be restored by them. This is what happens most of the time.
FedEx's CONS:
Night Flying. Unless you get seniority fast which is unlikely, you're going to be flying nights. Night hub turns slowly kill you. Not joking. And compared to legacies, FedEx's supposed "day flying" is also night flying as you come back to the hub at midnight to 1am. The "twilight sort" at Indy (which is flown by all bases) has a lot of midnight to 10am flying which is slightly different than the 9pm-5am typical night hub flying.
Lagging B-fund: FedEx's B-fund has fallen behind UPS's and is well behind the top legacies.
Dying A-Fund: FedEx's creme de la creme, the A-fund is now down to a 17% income replacement ratio. It is dying due to inflation. It is hardly the game changer anymore.
Section 24 and System Bids: Junior people and new hires will be trained and moved in your seat before you will be -- and you won't be paid for it. FedEx likes long wasteful system bids ... sometimes more than 2-years to train out and execute.
FedEx IT systems ... you'll be shocked as to how hard it is to put in for trip swaps, changing your schedule if even possible, doing expense reports. Yes, you have to do monthly expense reports like reporting hotel receipts and commercial ticket receipts etc.etc. You'll end up buying third party software to bid.
No easy base transfers ... even if you have someone willing to swap with you. You'll have to wait for system bids and then it could be 2 years after that. We currently have folks waiting until May 23 for a base transfer on a system bid that was in Nov 21.
Reserves ... EVERY SINGLE DAY YOU SIT RESERVE AT FEDEX HAS A 1.5 HOUR REPORT TIME. SO YOU MUST BE IN MEMPHIS OR YOUR BASE ON EVERY RESERVE DAY. Unlike the legacies, long calls can be sat at home. And Delta is getting 18 hour call outs!!!
No paid training hotels. You have to pay for your own hotels if you live outside of base.
Yes some of our domestic flights may qualify for catering. Trust me, you don't want to eat the "cold" meals. The hot international meals are ok though.
Even if you are a line holder, the contract at FedEx pretty much means you are on reserve ... the company can pretty much do anything it wants with you and/or your trip. Good luck if you are put into "substitution" ... Chinese arithmetic is probably easier to understand than the substitution diagram. Understanding substitution from reading the contract, impossible. Don't doubt me on this. Also, you can be involuntarily extended up to 3.5 days. It happens especially for international folks.
Operational Emergencies !!! ... FedEx can and will require you by contract to fly to the FAR maximums (that's a 16 hour duty day no matter when your show time was).
On reserves, you can and you will do up to four night hub turns in a week.
No FAR 117. FedEx and UPS operate under the Cargo Carveout. The corporations lobbied the FAA for it. It isn't in your favor.
Very tight manning. Reserve lines make up 10% of the known lines. Secondary or PBS lines make up about 20% of lines. You can and will get assigned reserve status during the Secondary or PBS process.
No profit sharing or other goal sharing incentive programs (for example Delta's on-time performance and baggage goals).
Unlike legacies, if you accidentally bring a weapon (as defined by FedEx security) through security, you'll be fired no questions asked. You don't get your job back. FedEx's restricted item list is much larger than the FAA's.
You fly a lot of extremely hazardous cargo. My personal favorite is Class 4, spontaneously combustibles. I'm not joking. Only the 777s and MD11s have upper deck cargo fire suppression. Good luck at 30 west in a 767, we're all counting on ya.
While the passenger carriers have the passenger bill of rights and they cancel a lot with bad weather, you're going to fly no matter what. As long as it's legal by the FARs, you're going.
Jump seating to long haul flights is frowned upon. The pilot isn't pay protected if there's a disruption with your jump seat flight and you were to fly a long haul flight.
Fred Smith is retiring. FedEx Express (the airline) is no longer his baby. We have no management and they don't have a love affair for pilots or planes. Things are a changing and not in a good way. FedEx hired two SVPs to work on efficiency with the airline.
FedEx's Pros:
More wide body positions
Dying a-fund
Best vacation system
70% of the bid pack (flying lines) are hard lines.
Guaranteed jump seat to work IF able to reserve 21 days in advance
There's probably more cons but it is 1:15 am and I have to go to work.
Night Flying. Unless you get seniority fast which is unlikely, you're going to be flying nights. Night hub turns slowly kill you. Not joking. And compared to legacies, FedEx's supposed "day flying" is also night flying as you come back to the hub at midnight to 1am. The "twilight sort" at Indy (which is flown by all bases) has a lot of midnight to 10am flying which is slightly different than the 9pm-5am typical night hub flying.
Lagging B-fund: FedEx's B-fund has fallen behind UPS's and is well behind the top legacies.
Dying A-Fund: FedEx's creme de la creme, the A-fund is now down to a 17% income replacement ratio. It is dying due to inflation. It is hardly the game changer anymore.
Section 24 and System Bids: Junior people and new hires will be trained and moved in your seat before you will be -- and you won't be paid for it. FedEx likes long wasteful system bids ... sometimes more than 2-years to train out and execute.
FedEx IT systems ... you'll be shocked as to how hard it is to put in for trip swaps, changing your schedule if even possible, doing expense reports. Yes, you have to do monthly expense reports like reporting hotel receipts and commercial ticket receipts etc.etc. You'll end up buying third party software to bid.
No easy base transfers ... even if you have someone willing to swap with you. You'll have to wait for system bids and then it could be 2 years after that. We currently have folks waiting until May 23 for a base transfer on a system bid that was in Nov 21.
Reserves ... EVERY SINGLE DAY YOU SIT RESERVE AT FEDEX HAS A 1.5 HOUR REPORT TIME. SO YOU MUST BE IN MEMPHIS OR YOUR BASE ON EVERY RESERVE DAY. Unlike the legacies, long calls can be sat at home. And Delta is getting 18 hour call outs!!!
No paid training hotels. You have to pay for your own hotels if you live outside of base.
Yes some of our domestic flights may qualify for catering. Trust me, you don't want to eat the "cold" meals. The hot international meals are ok though.
Even if you are a line holder, the contract at FedEx pretty much means you are on reserve ... the company can pretty much do anything it wants with you and/or your trip. Good luck if you are put into "substitution" ... Chinese arithmetic is probably easier to understand than the substitution diagram. Understanding substitution from reading the contract, impossible. Don't doubt me on this. Also, you can be involuntarily extended up to 3.5 days. It happens especially for international folks.
Operational Emergencies !!! ... FedEx can and will require you by contract to fly to the FAR maximums (that's a 16 hour duty day no matter when your show time was).
On reserves, you can and you will do up to four night hub turns in a week.
No FAR 117. FedEx and UPS operate under the Cargo Carveout. The corporations lobbied the FAA for it. It isn't in your favor.
Very tight manning. Reserve lines make up 10% of the known lines. Secondary or PBS lines make up about 20% of lines. You can and will get assigned reserve status during the Secondary or PBS process.
No profit sharing or other goal sharing incentive programs (for example Delta's on-time performance and baggage goals).
Unlike legacies, if you accidentally bring a weapon (as defined by FedEx security) through security, you'll be fired no questions asked. You don't get your job back. FedEx's restricted item list is much larger than the FAA's.
You fly a lot of extremely hazardous cargo. My personal favorite is Class 4, spontaneously combustibles. I'm not joking. Only the 777s and MD11s have upper deck cargo fire suppression. Good luck at 30 west in a 767, we're all counting on ya.
While the passenger carriers have the passenger bill of rights and they cancel a lot with bad weather, you're going to fly no matter what. As long as it's legal by the FARs, you're going.
Jump seating to long haul flights is frowned upon. The pilot isn't pay protected if there's a disruption with your jump seat flight and you were to fly a long haul flight.
Fred Smith is retiring. FedEx Express (the airline) is no longer his baby. We have no management and they don't have a love affair for pilots or planes. Things are a changing and not in a good way. FedEx hired two SVPs to work on efficiency with the airline.
FedEx's Pros:
More wide body positions
Dying a-fund
Best vacation system
70% of the bid pack (flying lines) are hard lines.
Guaranteed jump seat to work IF able to reserve 21 days in advance
There's probably more cons but it is 1:15 am and I have to go to work.
Where we seem to agree is that we can make things better without giving up one thing for another. Now, instead of pilots trying to divide us by military/civilian background or saying one group of pilots is at fault for the shortfalls of the contract, wouldn't it be better if we all tried to recognize that even if we disagree, we all want improvements. Now, I think I am going to start my holiday celebrations early. Merry Christmas and here is to hoping we can all work for the contract we have earned and deserve.
12-11-2022 | 02:29 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,174
Likes: 1
Base transfers
Saying that pilots should have read the contract in deciding whether to come here is a bit much. I mean, substitution encompasses about 14 full pages of the contract. I still don’t understand all of it. And there are things that simply you don’t know to ask about because you don’t know tot ask about them. Like the system bid length (which is not contractual), not being able to base transfer outside system bids (what started this whole thread), extensions up to 36/84 hours which is RIDICULOUS! It doesn’t matter that it pays 200%, it should be less ridiculous and then up to the pilot to decide if he wants to extend for 200%. Saying that you can just call in fatigue isn’t anything to brag about. Other places have less than half the extension and they can call in fatigue as well. In fact, every single airline in the US, from part 135 to regional to legacy any pilot can call in fatigue anytime they want. That is not a contractual benefit (another attitude problem we have here getting contractual and legal benefits that exist outside the contract confused). Even our sick time is convoluted here. And there are other things that looked great in the contract but when here you realize it was a bait and switch, looking at R24 as an easy example. Another example is cash over cap.” Or lack thereof. I didn’t know that was a thing until I came here because why would I? I was a low paid pilot before. But it seems that that is a standard item except for here. Other items are a lot more strict, like our commuter clause. No one else has the duty day restriction. That was a gem I found here. And why wouldn’t it count for deviations? All other places their commuter clause counts whether you are deviating or not. Another surprise. Other non-contractual things is the DOS era way of trying to improve your line. My regional had better IT interface than the 90s era we have here. There are also cultural things as well like the pressure to PDO bump in order to consolidate or maintain landing currency. Ask your friends at other airlines about this and they will have no idea what you are talking about. For them it’s part of being an international pilot that every 90 days they get a paid trip to the training house to reset their landings, no questions asked. It’s part of the gig and everyone knows it. Or pilots always seeming saying, what are you willing to give up for that? And when you say nothing, nothing they laugh and say, you haven’t been here long have you? That’s not how FedEx does it. And why do pilots here compare our top rate to the legacy’s top rate? That’s THREE years longer to reach the top rate. We should be comparing our 12 year rate to their 12 year rate. And there is the sentiment in this thread as well, knocking pilots down for simply pointing out the obvious flaws in our contract. Those pilots tell you, well you can still go to Delta, nothing is stopping you.
Anyway, I blame myself for not knowing about SUB, cash over cap, system bids, R24/HSTBY, 84 hr extensions, 1 hr call outs, commuter restrictions, etc. I should have read the entire 400 page legal document myself before hand. Not that I necessarily would’ve made a different choice. But that shouldn’t matter anyway because one can come here with the natural feeling that with time the contract would be improved, assuming no bankruptcies of course. But apparently that was another thing I didn’t know, that this contract had several concessions from the previous one. So maybe I should have read both of them before coming here? It’s impossible to know all the contractual and non-contractual items, let alone the cultural issues.
/rant
Anyway, I blame myself for not knowing about SUB, cash over cap, system bids, R24/HSTBY, 84 hr extensions, 1 hr call outs, commuter restrictions, etc. I should have read the entire 400 page legal document myself before hand. Not that I necessarily would’ve made a different choice. But that shouldn’t matter anyway because one can come here with the natural feeling that with time the contract would be improved, assuming no bankruptcies of course. But apparently that was another thing I didn’t know, that this contract had several concessions from the previous one. So maybe I should have read both of them before coming here? It’s impossible to know all the contractual and non-contractual items, let alone the cultural issues.
/rant
Last edited by FXLAX; 12-11-2022 at 02:50 PM.
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