de727ups

"But I'm not going to look down on a safe, competent pilot because they took the Gulfstream route."

I would look down on them. Not because of their skill/experience as a pilot, because that could very from person to person. I'm sure many of them are fine pilots. The problem is, they entered the profession by buying a job. By playing along with Gulfstream's game of making the F/O seat a revenue generator rather than a normally paid, entry level, job.

PFJ is a bad practice that is bad for the piloting career as a whole.

atpwannabe

You bring up some interesting points, however, I must respectfully disagree.

I don't see the connection between paying for training and flying through adverse weather conditions or encountering an inflight emergency and not knowing what to do or how to respond. Based on what I understand from what I've read about airline ground school/IOE is that the format is basically the same no matter what airline you fly for. I'm aware of the different a/c systems and flows and that type thing, but my point is that you still have to fly to ATP standards whether you pay for it or not. We all have different learning curves.

The other issue is....what problem are you refering to? The lack of experience? So what you're telling me is that you would rather fly with a 300hr wonder, ---as it is put at times, than to fly with someone that went through a PFT program and has flown with the same airline for maybe a year or two gaining experience?

The other thing is that not everyone that goes through a PFT training program gets hired. Lots of people fail their checkride and are shown the door.

You know, personally, I just can't find fault with the other guy/girl for doing what he or she determined to be the best route for themselves; whether if it was PFT or not.

JMO.



atp

Pilotpip

At no point was I trying to put words in your mouth. If you want a good description of what I'm trying to say, de727ups echos my sentiments exactly. He does it much more eloquently as usual.

And as much as you want to not worry about what your peers think, in an industry this small it matters. People talk, and when everybody has the same qualifications who you know is usually going to make more of a difference than what you know to get you in the door.

ufgatorpilot

That's fine. I can understand that. Pilotpip was acting like you couldn't have experience or be a fine pilot if you paid for it rather than instructed, towed banners, etc.

But let's be realistic, how many PFJ jobs are out there? Is this really affecting the market that much?

And where do you draw the line? Someone the other day was complaining about people paying to build some multi-time, rather than instruct or whatever, and I just think that is ridiculous.

mshunter

You have many valid points. And some of them are true. But in the end, do you realy come away from an FBO with 250hrs. and a fresh commercial cert., or ATP with 250 and a fresh commercial cert. with any different level of experince? Just thought I'd throw that out there. You still have to pass a minimum level of competency to pass the ride. As far as the CFI/CFII/MEI thing is considered, they are not "hand picked" examiners. The FSDO assigns examiners for this ride. So if you got it, you got it. My initial ride took 7 hours, and the examiner said I smoked it(as in did realy well). And I did all my certs through ATP.

I respect each and every opnion here. But those of you who havent gone to ATP should realy stop with the biased, yes biased opnions of ATP. Stop with the "you shoulden't go to ATP because," because you just don't know. You have no experince with which to back your opnions from. You did not attend ATP. This is the future of the industry, possibly. Experince gained when hired at a regional with 1000 hrs will be nearly the same as someone who did it through the FBO. I can speak from both sides of the coin, because I have done both sides. I went to ATP, and now teach at an FBO. There is not much difference, untill it comes to ground school. Most of my co-workers only fly/brief/de-brief with their students. I did groundschool everyday @ ATP, and also make my students do it.

And F172diver, you may have spent only 15k for your certs, but how many did you get, and when did you do them. Because I'll tell that the FBO I work at would cost much, much more than that. Just for a private cert., your looking at around 7-9 grand. And thats in a 150/152. And we are one of the cheaper ones around. 150/152 for 79 wet, 172 for 109 wet, 182RG for 166 wet.

If you did not attend ATP, you have no grounds to talk about the education they offer. It would be the same as talking about life on another planet. Have you ever been to another planet? No. So you shouldent talk about what life is like there, because you just don't know. It's all speculation. The point of this forum was to offer your experinces, not to disuade someone from a school you know nothing about.

Just another example of why you should only listen to 1/8th of what you read on the forums.

Pilotpip

atpwannabe,

I think your signature line is a great description of why I oppose PFT. I guess I adhere to that old American work ethic that seems to be sorely lacking today that hard work and determination will pay off in the long run.

It might be the best route for them in the short term, but what is paying for a job really doing for not only their long term prospects, but the prospects of the rest of us when there are people willing to not only work for free but to actually pay to do the job?

As for the bashing of ATP, I'm sure their program is good and as advertised. My most recent sim partner was an ATP grad. The difference was that he was a career changer, with nearly 2000 hours and tons of single pilot time in a PC-12. My partner at a previous carrier was a 22 year old college grad with zero experience outside of ATP. Didn't go well for him. Their PR department does a great job creating this illusion that there are still easy jobs to be had in the US.

atpwannabe

I asked the very same thing about a few months ago. It's gotta be negligible.

Hey, doesn't some of the more respectable regionals offer a PFT program of some sort? Something like signing a training contract and if you leave before that contract expires, you owe the company money for training you or something like that?


Pilotpip:


I see what you're saying. But again, the numbers of PFT'ers who are holding down a line position at any given airline has got to be small.



atp

Pilotpip

Training contracts are prevalent in the industry. I don't see that in the same light. Despite signing one, I've been paid by my airline since day one. Don't really plan on going anywhere either.

PFT was a lot more prevalent in the 90s. CoEx, Chautauqua and others did it and most airlines didn't pay during training. This eased up as it became harder to attract qualified individuals. I look for it to return if the economy remains in the crapper and the job prospects stay slim.

ufgatorpilot

Finally, something I agree with. This is why I'm not going to get excited if a few people get ahead because they did PFT or PFJ or whatever. Overall, I just don't think it really affects us that much and that we will all get where we want to get in the end regardless if we work hard enough. There are people getting ahead in every profession because they have more money, better connections, their father is this or that, etc. This will always be the case.

atpwannabe

Maybe some of the flying that Mesaba is going to be doing in FL just may be the "nail in the coffin for Gulfstream".....you think???

You never know. Over time it could happen.

Great discussion. Excellent exchange.




atp