Interesting email from ATP
02-17-2009, 07:53 PM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"do you realy (really) come away from an FBO....with any different level of experince?"
It depends. I did. I flew taildraggers, landed on grass runways, landed on an 1800 foot runway in the mountains (at night), flew single engine actual IFR, got ice, flew from WA to CA and KS to WA by myself in a 172 (no copilot). I didn't have the academy enviornment telling me what to do or dispatchers telling me where to go, or whether it was okay.
So, you could say while the number of hours were the same as an ATP comm applicant, the varied experiences leading up to those hours were not quite the same.
ATP tries to create an airline pilot from day one. I think this is neither necessary nor ideal, but it sells.
Certainly, there are FBO situations where ones experience might not equal, in total, what ATP can offer. And other FBO's that cost more than ATP. And ATP CFI's with my experience than the FBO. But I can say that in MY experience, I spent less and I had a more varied first 250 hours than I could have had at ATP. After all, I flew more than 15 different types in my first 250 hours. Outside a Citation and an RJ sim, ATP only has 172's and Seminoles...
"If you did not attend ATP, you have no grounds to talk about the education they offer"
I agree to a point. I think anyone should feel free to give their opinion about flight training they have experienced. Speaking for myself, I got both my ATP and MEI from All Atps in Long Beach, CA.
It depends. I did. I flew taildraggers, landed on grass runways, landed on an 1800 foot runway in the mountains (at night), flew single engine actual IFR, got ice, flew from WA to CA and KS to WA by myself in a 172 (no copilot). I didn't have the academy enviornment telling me what to do or dispatchers telling me where to go, or whether it was okay.
So, you could say while the number of hours were the same as an ATP comm applicant, the varied experiences leading up to those hours were not quite the same.
ATP tries to create an airline pilot from day one. I think this is neither necessary nor ideal, but it sells.
Certainly, there are FBO situations where ones experience might not equal, in total, what ATP can offer. And other FBO's that cost more than ATP. And ATP CFI's with my experience than the FBO. But I can say that in MY experience, I spent less and I had a more varied first 250 hours than I could have had at ATP. After all, I flew more than 15 different types in my first 250 hours. Outside a Citation and an RJ sim, ATP only has 172's and Seminoles...
"If you did not attend ATP, you have no grounds to talk about the education they offer"
I agree to a point. I think anyone should feel free to give their opinion about flight training they have experienced. Speaking for myself, I got both my ATP and MEI from All Atps in Long Beach, CA.
02-17-2009, 07:58 PM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"And where do you draw the line? Someone the other day was complaining about people paying to build some multi-time"
I draw the line at are you acting as a required crewmember and paying to do so. Shared multi time is legally loggable and a fairly standard practice. ATP gives you 190 hours multi. 50 of that is sim and I think the majority of the rest is shared time.
I draw the line at are you acting as a required crewmember and paying to do so. Shared multi time is legally loggable and a fairly standard practice. ATP gives you 190 hours multi. 50 of that is sim and I think the majority of the rest is shared time.
02-17-2009, 09:38 PM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: USAF
Posts: 1,398
Originally Posted by ufgatorpilot
No, I graduated a couple of years ago and moved out of Gainesville. I am out in the real world now. Enjoy your time there and don't party too hard.
Originally Posted by ufgatorpilot
Finally, something I agree with. This is why I'm not going to get excited if a few people get ahead because they did PFT or PFJ or whatever. Overall, I just don't think it really affects us that much and that we will all get where we want to get in the end regardless if we work hard enough. There are people getting ahead in every profession because they have more money, better connections, their father is this or that, etc. This will always be the case.
02-18-2009, 06:40 AM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: PA-31/left, LJ31/right
Posts: 350
Originally Posted by de727ups
"do you realy (really) come away from an FBO....with any different level of experince?"
It depends. I did. I flew taildraggers, landed on grass runways, landed on an 1800 foot runway in the mountains (at night), flew single engine actual IFR, got ice, flew from WA to CA and KS to WA by myself in a 172 (no copilot). I didn't have the academy enviornment telling me what to do or dispatchers telling me where to go, or whether it was okay.
It depends. I did. I flew taildraggers, landed on grass runways, landed on an 1800 foot runway in the mountains (at night), flew single engine actual IFR, got ice, flew from WA to CA and KS to WA by myself in a 172 (no copilot). I didn't have the academy enviornment telling me what to do or dispatchers telling me where to go, or whether it was okay.
.CP Aviation Home Page
02-18-2009, 06:50 AM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 456
Originally Posted by Diver Driver
The problem with PFJ is that you are paying to do a JOB that would otherwise normally be a paid position. Myself and a lot of other guys are out on the street at many airlines right now and this issue kind of makes me sick.
I see a lot of similarities between PFJ folks and the guys that jumped ship from TSA to GoJets when they were first created, they were willing to do anything and everything to get ahead without thinking about the bigger picture or 'stabbing someone in the back'. It really makes me question the professionalism and integrity of the people that choose this route... and if I am ever a part of a hiring board in the future, I dont think I would be comfortable hiring an individual that participated in a PFJ program because of the perceived lack of professionalism and integrity that these programs create for themselves.... it's an ethics issue for me.
Imagine in 10 years when you are a crusty regional captain or a mainline FO and you get furloughed or your company goes out of business but other carriers are 'hiring' PFJ guys to sit in the right seat... you would be outraged.
So ya, Gulfstream and a few others have this 'program', but where does it stop? Thank God we have ALPA and other unions at most carriers to prevent this kind of stuff from going on... for now.
I see a lot of similarities between PFJ folks and the guys that jumped ship from TSA to GoJets when they were first created, they were willing to do anything and everything to get ahead without thinking about the bigger picture or 'stabbing someone in the back'. It really makes me question the professionalism and integrity of the people that choose this route... and if I am ever a part of a hiring board in the future, I dont think I would be comfortable hiring an individual that participated in a PFJ program because of the perceived lack of professionalism and integrity that these programs create for themselves.... it's an ethics issue for me.
Imagine in 10 years when you are a crusty regional captain or a mainline FO and you get furloughed or your company goes out of business but other carriers are 'hiring' PFJ guys to sit in the right seat... you would be outraged.
So ya, Gulfstream and a few others have this 'program', but where does it stop? Thank God we have ALPA and other unions at most carriers to prevent this kind of stuff from going on... for now.
02-18-2009, 08:53 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: none ya...
Posts: 1,154
Originally Posted by de727ups
I've never been a fan of ATP's 90 day program. I think it pushes the limit since you have no time for seasoning between ratings. No time to learn "outside the box". So, in my opinion, "nobody can do it as fast as ATP", is more of a negative than a positive.
To answer the OP's question about the intern turbine time thing. I believe ATP has planned for a long time to operate a new model of the VLJ's (forget which one) in a charter or Frac type operation. They will need a fully qualified pilot for the left seat but will put an "intern" in the right seat to build turbine time. Depending on how this is structured, it could be seen as Gulfstream style PFJ, at worst, or simply loggable ride along time a la Eagle Jet International.
In the end, it's hardly proven how the industry will respond to such a unique program, even if there was any hiring going on for the industry to respond too...
In this hiring enviornment, I'd hardly suggest ATP "because" of the internship program. If you like ATP for other reasons, then knock yerself out, but I see the "internship" program as a highly unproven carrot that ATP is using to sell their program much like the RJ course used to be.
To answer the OP's question about the intern turbine time thing. I believe ATP has planned for a long time to operate a new model of the VLJ's (forget which one) in a charter or Frac type operation. They will need a fully qualified pilot for the left seat but will put an "intern" in the right seat to build turbine time. Depending on how this is structured, it could be seen as Gulfstream style PFJ, at worst, or simply loggable ride along time a la Eagle Jet International.
In the end, it's hardly proven how the industry will respond to such a unique program, even if there was any hiring going on for the industry to respond too...
In this hiring enviornment, I'd hardly suggest ATP "because" of the internship program. If you like ATP for other reasons, then knock yerself out, but I see the "internship" program as a highly unproven carrot that ATP is using to sell their program much like the RJ course used to be.
02-18-2009, 09:41 AM
#67
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
If this thread is still about AllATP versus the FBO path, then I am still not convinced AllATPs has a supportable business case. It appeals to an impulsive individual who does not have the patience to go the more conservative route, a route that has clear advantages in quality and cost. If the AllATPs path buys time, then it is debatable whether time saved is of any value in the current hiring market. Yet it places you on a hook of debt extending years into the future, a debt which absolutely must be repaid. Someone said they can make $48k as a flight instructor, but you can do that without AllATPS. Most fulltime CFIs only make about $30k anyway.
Part of the idea with the FBO route is to pay as you earn and not pay as you borrow. I came out of flight training through various FBOs and flying clubs with my CFI and various other certs, with zero debt. It took me about 4 years but I was in no hurry and got an engineering degree among other things at the same time.
The best case I have heard for AllATPs concerns itself with the advantages of gaining seniority at the airlines. There many problems with this argument, such as what if you get there and don't like it, you wash out, get furloughed or the company goes under. You still have that a whopping loan to pay and it will not go away. There are at least a few such persons and they have posted their miseries on this website.
Personally I think AllATPS is best used a la cart for getting ME add ons, as a CFI finishing school and for two day Airline Transport Pilot certificates. For that they are the best.
Part of the idea with the FBO route is to pay as you earn and not pay as you borrow. I came out of flight training through various FBOs and flying clubs with my CFI and various other certs, with zero debt. It took me about 4 years but I was in no hurry and got an engineering degree among other things at the same time.
The best case I have heard for AllATPs concerns itself with the advantages of gaining seniority at the airlines. There many problems with this argument, such as what if you get there and don't like it, you wash out, get furloughed or the company goes under. You still have that a whopping loan to pay and it will not go away. There are at least a few such persons and they have posted their miseries on this website.
Personally I think AllATPS is best used a la cart for getting ME add ons, as a CFI finishing school and for two day Airline Transport Pilot certificates. For that they are the best.
02-18-2009, 09:46 AM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Math Teacher
Posts: 2,274
Originally Posted by TPROP4ever
I hope I've read all the posts here, but if it hasnt been brought up yet, I will clarify it, this new program at ATP, is a joint venture with 3M. The initial ratings will be through ATP, and continuing on into the Gulfstream program. I dont know the details. Before this turns into bashing, Let me say Im just puting the facts out there to the OP's question. And clarifying the VLJ debate.
I can hear it now...echoing throughtout APC-land..."Say it isn't so. ATP & Gulfstream."
Now who would have ever thought that.......
Let the fireworks begin.
atp
02-18-2009, 11:37 AM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: none ya...
Posts: 1,154
Originally Posted by atpwannabe
I can hear it now...echoing throughtout APC-land..."Say it isn't so. ATP & Gulfstream."
Now who would have ever thought that.......
Let the fireworks begin.
atp
Now who would have ever thought that.......
Let the fireworks begin.
atp
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
