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Old 02-21-2010, 10:52 AM   #11  
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Usually these time building deals have the pilot-not-flying log PIC as a safety pilot at the same time, and both pilots log PIC. This is a controversial system for logging time, although I do not wish to take sides on it. Another thing about this is the third pilot in the back, another controversial activity.
So the PF would have to be on foggles right (simualted instrument) while the PNF acts as the safety pilot and can log the PIC time too?

This doesn't sound like to much FUN for the guy in back, but what is the controversey? If there is a "mentor" in back and he is not signed for the aircraft or manipulating controls in any way - is s/he not just the adult supervision who has input on decisions made or points out factors?

An interesting aside here would be a flight of multiple aircraft. The flight lead might very well be fully trained and qualified for the position, but not the most experienced member of the flight (flight time, experience, or in this scenario - rank wise) There was a situation many years ago where a flight of 4 Harriers had some trouble. At least one aircraft ended up running out of fuel. The -3 member of the flight was NOT the flight lead, but was the senior ranking member of the flight. In the end he ended up being cited as a casual factor in the mishap because as the senior member of the lfiht he should have stepped in an taken control of the situation.

So....in GA - what *role* would this "mentor" in the backseat be taking?

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Old 02-21-2010, 10:57 AM   #12  
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So....in GA - what *role* would this "mentor" in the backseat be taking?

USMCFLYR
Maybe Insurance reqs? The 'mentor' perhaps MEI? - the whole notion is pretty shady... wouldn't want my certificate (or life) to be on the line, when I can't even reach the controls.
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Old 02-21-2010, 11:11 AM   #13  
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Well the safety pilot logging PIC is an approved FAA method to have two pilots log time on a single-pilot airplane, but I know some airlines that do not accept such time toward their hiring minimums, and in my mind the spirit of the principle has to do with helping a left seat pilot practice doing approaches in VFR conditions for IFR currency or IFR flight training, neither of which really is the point of a twin-engine airplane doing long cross countries for time building purposes. I can only guess why some airlines don't count it, but I'll venture a guess they think it represents a lot of time watching the world go by as the right seat pilot does little as far as flying the airplane is concerned. Another reason may be that as you mention, the left side pilot is supposed to be wearing a view limiting device, but it is a skeptical thing to believe he or she is going to wear a hood for 7 hours at a time as specified.

As far as the back-seater goes, that is also legal as far as the FAA is concerned and he or she may log PIC as well, but his or her participation is obviously fairly limited. And one might argue from a learning perspective that they should not be there anyway, the pilots up front should thinking for themselves. If there is an emergency, then what can they do from the back seat except repeat the contents of the pilots operating handbook? As Ryan says, it has more to do with insurance than with learning. Once again, I do not take sides in it, just trying to point out some of the typical controversies.

Last edited by Cubdriver; 02-21-2010 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 02-21-2010, 01:28 PM   #14  
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Maybe Insurance reqs? The 'mentor' perhaps MEI? - the whole notion is pretty shady... wouldn't want my certificate (or life) to be on the line, when I can't even reach the controls.
Like in a commercial airliner

Insurance could certainly be one example I guess.
But then this MEI in the backseat can't be logging MEI time can he?
General question - if the guy flying (left seat) IS multi-rated, and the PNF is an MEI (right seat), does he get to log that time as instruction time just because he is an MEI - even if there is no true instruction going on?

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Old 02-21-2010, 01:34 PM   #15  
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...But then this MEI in the backseat can't be logging MEI time can he?
I think they can. I'll have to check though.

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...General question - if the guy flying (left seat) IS multi-rated, and the PNF is an MEI (right seat), does he get to log that time as instruction time just because he is an MEI - even if there is no true instruction going on? ...
Yes but then again, a lot of this time in someone's logbook is a sure sign that some funny (albeit legally correct) logging is going on. Interviewers are not idiots, they know that it does not take 50 hours to give someone a BFR or a checkout, and it is a gray area. If I were an MEI baby-sitting a couple of guys doing their time-building from the back seat purely for insurance purposes, I doubt seriously that I would log any of the time at all.
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Old 02-21-2010, 02:27 PM   #16  
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I think they can. I'll have to check though.
I remember a thread on here from some time ago about **instructing** from the backseat. It seems fishy.


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Yes but then again, a lot of this time in someone's logbook is a sure sign that some funny (albeit legally correct) logging is going on. Interviewers are not idiots, they know that it does not take 50 hours to give someone a BFR or a checkout, and it is a gray area. If I were an MEI baby-sitting a couple of guys doing their time-building from the back seat purely for insurance purposes, I doubt seriously that I would log any of the time at all.
Well...legal is legal I guess. I mean just because a guy is rated doesn't mean that he can't be getting some instruction obviously like you said, on the other hand I was just asking about the legality of logging the instruction time or if there was something that said that a MEI couldn't be giving instruction unless it was for a specific rating or BFR/IPC (each of which ony requires 1 hour correct?) Very confusing!

You wouldn't log the stuff from the backseat but what would you log if you were sitting in my right seat (I'm ME rated and let's say that I'm current and everything - not a BFR or IPC required) and we are just flying from KSEE to KNLC for a hamburger Would you log MEI time?

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Old 02-21-2010, 02:45 PM   #17  
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"I think they can. I'll have to check though."

He can log it as an MEI. It's shady, I agree, but it's legal for him to give instruction from the back seat and log it at PIC as instruction given.
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Old 02-21-2010, 02:46 PM   #18  
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...You wouldn't log the stuff from the backseat but what would you log if you were sitting in my right seat (I'm ME rated and let's say that I'm current and everything - not a BFR or IPC required) and we are just flying from KSEE to KNLC for a hamburger...USMCFLYR
It's certainly legal to do so but there again, what is really going on is he or she is stretching the rules to log more time and the more intelligent interviewer will know how to spot that time. Only a few ratings require long cross countries with dual-instruction. If it's not one of those, then you are basically misusing the rules to log more dual-given when it is clear by reading between the lines that no dual-given is really going on. No law against it, just the ethical question. I know guys who log every minute they are in an airplane simply because they can. It is a blaring yellow flag in my mind at least they are not particularly honest. Rick or DE should have something to say about how the airlines regard it.
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Old 02-21-2010, 03:06 PM   #19  
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It's certainly legal to do so but there again, what is really going on is he or she is stretching the rules to log more time and the more intelligent interviewer will know how to spot that time. Only a few ratings require long cross countries with dual-instruction. If it's not one of those, then you are basically misusing the rules to log more dual-given when it is clear by reading between the lines that no dual-given is really going on. No law against it, just the ethical question. I know guys who log every minute they are in an airplane simply because they can. It is a blaring yellow flag in my mind at least they are not particularly honest. Rick or DE should have something to say about how the airlines regard it.
But if I let you fly half the time then we could both log 1/2 of the flight time as ME PIC (and the entire flight under total time for each of us?)
DE - I guess back inthe day there was some instruction going on from the backseat of cerain jets that didn;'t have an extra set of controls - but AT LEAST that instructor had a way to get out of the airplane just in case

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Old 02-26-2010, 08:52 AM   #20  
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I paid for some time from this program, here's a few things up front about it. The guy is a complete liar. They have 1 Seneca that is used for the majority of the flying. He also as an aztec and another twin that are in pieces. The maintenance on the airplane is shady. They guy that signs off their maintenance is located in Dallas and the plane was based out of Pompano Beach, FL. The IA on that airplane is a great guy and defiantly knew what he was doing, I just didn't know how much work he was doing on the airplane.

Make sure you have current charts (when I went on the trip the charts were a year old, luckily we were visual almost the entire time). The weight and balance hadn't been reconfigured with a seat out, that was the issue that was making me most nervous.

The actual flying experience was great. I purchased 50 hours and it took about 6 days (we were stuck in LA for a day). The flying was great. The guy I flew with and I are still in touch. you get to know each other when you spend 7 straight days together.

Let me know if you have any other questions
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