ObadiahDogberry

So in your world, someone who is not line checked as a captain, is not PC'd as a captain, is not listed as a captain on the release, and is unable to log P1 time is still somehow a captain?! How does that work? I'd like to hear your logic. I am sure there are tens of thousands of FOs out there that would love to hear it too. Oh, and let the FAA and EASA know as well, I am sure they would be interested to hear your logic.

Andy

I confess that this is the first time I've ever heard of a relief captain not being checked out as a captain. Must be a eurothing.
How many stripes does the relief captain have? 4? What's his title? Relief captain?
But sure, he's only called a captain; he's not a captain.

P1 is a new term to me. We use PIC time. And yes, one person on the flight deck logs PIC time. Because you can't log PIC time in the bunk. Or is that another euro thing? Logging P1 (if that's what you call it) time while unconscious in the bunks?
You are definitely not familiar with the FARs. In accordance with FAR 61.51, a relief captain will log PIC time when he is on duty and in charge on the flight deck.

It sounds like you're just making stuff up to justify your pretzel logic.
'A relief captain's not a captain' ... amusing. No wonder you were stuck working at Norwegian. Cream of the crop.

JohnBurke

It sounds like you're unfamiliar with aviation outside the USA. Anywhere outside the USA.

JohnnyBekkestad

My buddy at Atlas is still an FO and flies as relief CA. 3 stripes.

Joachim

You are not completely correct. Principally the Relief captain was not a senior FO. As per the manual the RC was to be in command whenever the Commander/P1 was off duty. The time logged as such was PIC-US (under supervision). To muddy the waters further many commanders were EX-KLM, Virgin, Emirates etc. and had a tendency to implement whatever structure they were familiar with prior and therefore did not actually treat RCA’s as intended. This made for some interesting situations especially with the KLM types (think stereotypical Naval aviator attitude) and autocratic Emirates guys with their sandbox CRM. It was a dung show at times.

ObadiahDogberry

Relief Captains were not line checked, or PC'd as captains. It was an internal designation and they had to go through the upgrade evaluation and process to become captains. Yes, RCA's could log P1/US, but not P1 time, meaning in the true sense of the word, they were not captains.

ObadiahDogberry

I am very familiar with the FARs. In case you were not aware, there is an entire world that operates outside of the FARs, and P1 is used in most places around the world. Norwegian was not a U.S. airline, it operated under EASA regulations. Under EASA regulations RCAs could not log P1 time, they could log P1 under supervision (P1/US), but as they were not line checked, or PC'd as a captain, and they were not listed as PIC on the release, they could not log P1 time. RCAs had to go through the upgrade process, including letters of recommendation, evaluations of OPCs/LPCs and prior line checks, an online training course, and a chief pilot interview in order to be selected to go to the "command course". Outside of a title, and three and a half stripes, they were not captains in any sense of the word, neither for practical purposes nor for regulatory purposes.

lgaflyer

why is the regional the devil and norweigan is selling your soul?

what is the differnece bteween working for ghe devil vs. Selling your soul?

lgaflyer

Not only do you sound like you have never been outside of the US! You never even READ about aviation outside of the US. This is sad!

P1 is a common term for PIC. He can log PIC even sleeping in the bunk. The RCA only logs PIC/US when the P1 is in bunk. For an FO to become RCA, he has to follow the upgrade process (interview, evaluation, sim check, line check etc). For an RCA to become Captain, he also has to follow the upgrade process. This is very typical of many non-US airlines.

This is to create a chain of command structure so that when the P1 is resting in the bunk and a decision has to be made, everyone knows who to defer to (also knows who to blame I guess)

Like in AF447 where they had 2 FO sitting up front, no one knows who was in command. No one knows who was PF neither.