TransWorld

You mean the CA flying a 777 is paid more than the CA in developing countries still flying the rugged DC-3? 🤪

rickair7777

Not screaming at them, just want them to stay on their side of the fence. They can drag the euro domestic industry to new lows if they like.

Also not sure if you noticed but the current generation of mainline pilots (which includes me) has dug in their heels pretty hard on outsourcing. Even with covid, there's no sign of scope relief.

Denti

Oh, Cityline (regional carrier) is much better paid than their A330 pilots flying for the Eurowings brand, non-unionized of course. Around €110k for those CPTs as max pay. Since that was too expensive for Lufty, they now outsource it to their new project "Ocean" recently renamed Eurowings Discover with even lower pay, again, non-unionized and financed by the german government to the tune of 9 billion.

As a LoCo FO i get paid more than those Lufty longhaul captains...

By the way, with Lufty mainline there is no aircraft dependent salary, A320 crew get paid the same as A380 (well, until they stopped flying that fleet that is).

poopplop

This is what you've told me so far:

1. "Our outsourcing of mainline jobs is OK because regionals aren't flying wide bodies.."
   No comment..
   
2. "Less compensation/benefits for our outsourced jobs is OK because smaller planes pay less anyway."
   (Which is a joke and you know it. If it was that simple the RJs would be flown by your pilots)
   
3. "It's OK if Norwegian outsources jobs as long as their practices don't affect my airline's market and my profit."
   Well OK then.
   
4. "I claim to hold the moral high ground over Norwegian because I dug my heels on scope."
   Big deal. Take the flying back or be quiet. No trophies just for showing up. Also, see #3...

NEDude

Norwegian pilots in Europe, including those that were on the 787, were unionized and paid industry average wages for Europe. But of course your 3 minute cartoon implied otherwise, so who cares about the truth.

Gone Flying

there is a huge difference between having some of your regional feed outsourced with limits on how many jets and how many seats vs outsourcing wide bodies flown with your paint job. I agree with other posters that our anger should be geared at any carrier that uses alter ego airlines.

I’d be happy to bring all flying to mainline as would most mainline pilots, however the companies were able to get the RJs outsourced in BK and unfortunately for us, there is not much that can be done to get them back in house. I think Rick is right that most current pilots have zero interest in giving up scope further, but getting the genie back in the bottle on this one is gonna be next to impossible

poopplop

I disagree. If you don't think "American Eagle" is alter ego, then you've been successfully brainwashed or are playing dumb for your narrative. In the end you're still selling jobs. The only difference is certain people were allowed to keep the best jobs/pay/benefits for themselves. But once those people are threatened by similar outsourcing practices, suddenly it's wrong and every pilot should be united against it...
I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult. But "dug my heels PRETTY HARD on scope" literally means nothing. There is no justification for self praise while accepting the contractor-subsidized profit-sharing check. There is no reason to take moral high ground over Norwegian while mainline jobs are sold to contractors with subpar wages/benefits here at home.

Gone Flying

I don’t think we will see eye to eye on this and that’s ok, but there is a difference between allowing specific aircraft smaller than anything you fly to be subcontracted and having alter ego airlines. Endeavor can’t just start flying Delta’s a330s. I personally have no beef with NLH, I’m not happy to see them fail. any issues I had with Norwegian stem from flag of Convenience operations which NLH was not doing.

Those jobs were shipped off in BK, I’m sure if mainline pilots agreed to a 70% pay cut and give up all our work rules management might think about it but I don’t see a scenario where we are able to take back scope without decimating the rest of our contract, it’s too valuable to management to be able to outsource that flying. Most non military pilots start at the regionals but a solid majority move on to a major after they upgrade.

on a side note, I’m assuming you are a euro pilot, how do major airlines in Europe hire pilots? Does a pilot go to work for Lufthansa city line then apply to Lufthansa? What about LCCs, can you work at low cost carrier then apply to a network carrier (like Lufthansa, KLM, SAS etc)?

poopplop

That’s because you sold the work before the planes were bought. You think that’s a good excuse? It's OK because the effect didn't come before the cause?? The labor was still sold. Something like 40% of U.S. departures are regional carriers, carrying roughly 20% of U.S. passengers. Maybe make some progress on this before anyone starts sticking their noses up and praising themselves for doing some "pretty hard heel digging" on outsourcing.

Gone Flying

At least 1 is major has, in 2012 DL had something like 800 RJs, now that number is 415. And mainline must do 1.88 mainline departures per RJ departure. That’s significant progress in my eyes. Again, when a BK judge gives management a blank check with the scope section of your contract, it takes time to undo that carnage. The last time the contract was changed to increase the total number of jets to be outsourced was in 2006, over half of DL’s pilots have been hired since then.

scope being a battle here doesn’t mean we can’t have an opinion of flag of Convenience schemes that could have a significant negative impact on our careers. I also know that NLH was not a foc and again am not happy or celebrating the fact they are cutting the airline