Macjet

This is the worst advise. Ever. Pilot in Command means the guy in COMMAND. That would be the Captain or Aircraft Commander. Now, if you want to keep track of your 'sole manipulator' time for ARGUS then have at it. Just know that if you ever try to go to anything larger than a King Air for WU you'll be laughed out of the interview with your First Officer 'PIC' time.

1212135

Didn’t I mention that most 121 carriers would not except it but that’s a company policy. And like it or not FAA general council has ruled on it. So I’m not sure what your point is?? There are some pilots that record time from when the breaks get released at the gate. Others only record air-time only. If you don’t like it “B” to the FAA general Council not me. Plus a lot of 121 regionals to get DEC have seen it this way to fill there depleted ranks. I agree your assessment that Delta/AA/United/SWA/NK/NJA/etc...have no reason to as upgrade times are years away for a new FO. They get the same training and flight time a 135 guy does before commanding an airplane zero. so if Daddy’s a CP at one of above mentioned airlines. A FO could technically upgrade with ZERO PIC time and command a plane. OR are you telling me ( above mentioned airlines) tell new captain go take the A320 in the pattern for 1000 hours????? Only reason why we are even arguing over this is an Argus issue for insuring part 135 operations. It has nothing else to do with anything else. Sorry if it hurts your feelings. A 121 carriers can hire a man with 1500 and and ATP and make him a 787 captain. They don’t but very possible as they don’t have an over sight company like Argus

Are you one of those pilots that instead of guessing instrument time like most pilots do. You sit there with a stop watch on a 6 hour cross country flight??? Because if I find out your lying by even one minute of your instrument time..... we will just leave it at that.

But yes I will address your point a 121 mainline carrier will not accept that time. But isn’t this a 135 thread????

1212135

Also I will address the reason why it done this way. Argus/WYVERN say to “ABC” part 135 carrier your pilot needs 1000 PIC 250 intype PIC ( Generals numbers) for us to insure your carrier/airline. So new FO out of flight school sits smiling face in right seat for 5 years till his day arrives “ Upgrade day”
But in order for ABC carrier to allow his new upgrade A/W requires as above mentioned hours. OH WAIT! He has nothing because you claim it doesn’t count. So how is ABC able to get captains flying there airplanes?? And yes I have flown larger aircraft than a KingAir under that ruling. I have 7 type ratings. All bigger than a KingAir. I’ve flown to Hawaii and Europe. So feel free to call me out. Only reason why I have downgraded to a smaller plane was QOL scheduale the 24/7 on call world didn’t work for my family when kids came along.

EMAW

He was talking about trying to go to an airline. They will not accept “sole manipulator” time as PIC. Speaking of the big 3 and probably others.

The only stipulation on logging in the regs is for currency and in furtherance of a certificate. You can log whatever the hell you want, but when you are sitting in front of a panel of your peers asking for your career job, you better be able to back up what’s in your logbook. Personally I never logged sole manipulator as PIC because I didn’t need it, but if I did need it I would have separated it into another column.

PS The company has records of your flight time both PF AND PM, so the need to log it personally here is non-existent.

Das Auto

I agree. If you're listed as PIC on the trip sheet / dispatch release you log it as PIC. If you're listed as SIC you're SIC.
If you're logging PIC time just because you're sole manipulator of the controls and the other guy is listed as PIC, you're going to have both pilots logging PIC and that's not good.

If an interviewer suspects for a minute that you falsified your log book citing a technicality its not going to go well. I've seen some resumes with half of the time listed as instrument. It just looks bad. IFR is not necessarily IMC. Anything that looks suspicious is going to raise eyebrows.

1212135

Not here to Argue but here you go. General Councel Statement datedFeb 9 1999 Paragraph E (2)
“While it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously.”

Signed
D.Brent Pope
Attorney, AHM-7H

There a whole paragraphed stating why. I did my homework....NEXT. Now maybe there validation to the point as how many of your flight hours were logged as Captain PIC but they only ask for your PIC hours. However my statement stands that it is legal. It just may not be accepted at PART121 carriers. ( But as ive mentioned before regional airlines have accepted it before when pilots were hard to come by so don’t say no airlines will accept that.) Once again the whole logic of it make complete sense. A brand new FO gets hired at ABC airlines. 1500 hrs. Let’s say 300 hours of that’s PIC. As an FO he would be logging Zero PIC but we all know one day he will upgrade one day. How is it that he was able to achieve 700 hrs PIC and 250 PIC in type if these hours didn’t count?

PM me for PDF of whole statement. Sorry can’t seem to get a download on this forum.

1212135

I understand but the whole point of my post was a Pilot was interest in coming to a part 135 airline. Macjet came out of know where with “ Delta” won’t accept that blah blah blah... I even said in my initial statement airlines probably wouldn’t accept it but that is a company policy not FAA policy/stance. I’m arguing with Mainline/NJA pilot on a GAMA forum.

Like I said PM if you’d like a copy of the General Councel statement.

Das Auto

I like the EMAW idea of having a separate column.
The PIC signs for the aircraft, has operational control, is the in flight security coordinator, is the person legally in charge of the aircraft, and is the person who has been designated to act as PIC by the air carrier.

If you are listed as the SIC on the trip sheet or dispatch release then you are not the person mentioned above and have no business claiming that you are in your log book.

Now, if the company was to take the time to list the guy as PIC on the non revenue / part 91 legs then that's a different story, but I've yet to see that happen at any company that I've worked for.

1212135

So your telling me on empty legs at GAMA or for that matter NJA XOjet FE etc. on empty legs Ops/dispatch changes the Trip sheet to show a FO as PIC ( Giving him full authority) and have him physically move into the left seat for appropriate logging of PIC time???????????

I’ve never seen that in my 16 years of flying. Unless the FO flying with a check airman.

And your answer will be “NO they don’t actually do that”. I have never seen that done before either.... ***Bringing me back to my main point. How does any FO/SIC ever upgraded??? NEWS FLASH the time flown when appropriately ATP type rate in the aircraft as sole manipulator of flight controls is counted as PIC ***.

At some point a FO has to get some PIC experience whether that’s aircraft specific or general PIC time. And as we discussed before a company won’t put a SIC in the left seat with PIC authority. So a FO could never upgrade. And in the 135 world Argus and WYVERN pretty much have the insurability of a carrier in there hands and they do require PIC both in general and aircraft specific.

Regionals and Mainline carriers hire people lacking PIC all the time. They sit right seat til there day comes at the snap of a finger ( Bid award and a 2-3 week training course they are a Captain.). So any real notion of this mythical PIC is a company specific determination. And Yes I sat Right seat FO with a regional airline with maybe 250 SEL PIC, one day I got an email congrats you been awarded Captain. I didn’t have 1000 PIC. Apparently it doesn’t matter.

Das Auto

Newsflash? Easy there. No I'm not suggesting they do that, but if they did it would then be legal for the person to log their time as PIC assuming they we're typed.

To log PIC as you suggested just because you're pilot flying could bite someone in the butt and potentially ruin their chances of landing their dream job. It's irresponsible to suggest such thing on a public forum where people who don't know better look for advice.