Frontier Negotiations Discussion
02-23-2018, 07:28 PM
#1041
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 617
Originally Posted by ColdWhiskey
What difference does it matter what size F9 is? Our negotiators need to educate the new NMB members that Frontier pilots were once one of the highest paid Airbus operators (and that was when we were much smaller than we are now).
In addition, our upper management receives compensation that is on par with their legacy contemporaries.
In addition, SWA pilots have proved for many, many years that just because they were an LCC, they didn't have to work for less than their legacy counterparts (and that has been the case going back many years when they were a small airline relative to the legacy majors).
In addition, our upper management receives compensation that is on par with their legacy contemporaries.
In addition, SWA pilots have proved for many, many years that just because they were an LCC, they didn't have to work for less than their legacy counterparts (and that has been the case going back many years when they were a small airline relative to the legacy majors).
"In awarding these increases, we are satisfied that Alaska pilots will be properly ranked just behind the four leading industry carriers.5 There is reason for such relative juxtaposition, but it is also true that Alaska is not properly considered fully comparable to American, Delta, United or Southwest. Those carriers, unlike Alaska, all have large networks, in some cases global, and substantially different operating models. They are between 3 to 5 times larger than Alaska and, due to their larger size and scale, they maintain strong networks with large numbers of corporate accounts and high revenue customers who demand frequency and breadth of service that can only be provided by carriers of that size and scale. By contrast, Alaska earns almost half its domestic revenue from just two cities, Seattle and San Francisco. For these reasons, it cannot be considered a global network."
Unfortunately for us, size and business model do matter to the NMB.
My prediction...
There will be more mediation sessions in March and April. In each the company will offer more money but will not back down on PBS. The NMB will insist that the company's offer is more than reasonable and we can take it or sit on ice. Sound familiar? The NC will put a TA similar to Spirit's (including PBS) out to a vote later this year.
That's where my prediction ends. It's up to the Frontier pilots to decide if PBS is worth it. Any contract with PBS is an automatic no for me, but I'm just one vote.
Remember, PBS is a concession. Period. Any gains (higher hourly rates, retirement DC, etc) can easily be stripped away in bankruptcy. Sure Frontier is very profitable today, but ask anyone who was flying in 2001 if they thought their airline would file bankruptcy in the near future on September 10th, 2001.
02-23-2018, 07:55 PM
#1042
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,397
I understand that size was an issue in the Alaska arbitration. I do not know who the arbitrator was? Was the arbitrator a member of the NMB? I doubt it, but I don't know.
The Alaska pay rates are very close to the big legacy carriers. A few bucks less an hour. On a percentage basis, its not much at all. Personally, I don't really think the size of Frontier is going to be an issue.
Us being grouped into a peer group with Spirit and Allegiant is a much larger issue that our size. The proposal that the company just offered is substantially less than the Spirit TA. Its worse than the Spirit TA is virtually every way. Lower rates, lower retirement contributions, and worse PBS language. The latest company proposal is nothing more than a stall tactic. I do not believe we will be given a TA with PBS in it. I do not believe our NC will ever send us a TA with PBS.
We are dealing with the companies negotiating and stall tactics. I think the mediator will see this as negotiating in bad faith and it will accelerate our path to either much stronger pressure from the NMB or our eventual release.
CantStayAway is absolutely right that PBS is a major concession, and one that would be permanent. We must do our best to preserve work rules.
The Alaska pay rates are very close to the big legacy carriers. A few bucks less an hour. On a percentage basis, its not much at all. Personally, I don't really think the size of Frontier is going to be an issue.
Us being grouped into a peer group with Spirit and Allegiant is a much larger issue that our size. The proposal that the company just offered is substantially less than the Spirit TA. Its worse than the Spirit TA is virtually every way. Lower rates, lower retirement contributions, and worse PBS language. The latest company proposal is nothing more than a stall tactic. I do not believe we will be given a TA with PBS in it. I do not believe our NC will ever send us a TA with PBS.
We are dealing with the companies negotiating and stall tactics. I think the mediator will see this as negotiating in bad faith and it will accelerate our path to either much stronger pressure from the NMB or our eventual release.
CantStayAway is absolutely right that PBS is a major concession, and one that would be permanent. We must do our best to preserve work rules.
02-23-2018, 08:03 PM
#1043
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Position: Bus CA
Posts: 658
Originally Posted by CantStayAway
From the Alaska/Virgin arbitration...
"In awarding these increases, we are satisfied that Alaska pilots will be properly ranked just behind the four leading industry carriers.5 There is reason for such relative juxtaposition, but it is also true that Alaska is not properly considered fully comparable to American, Delta, United or Southwest. Those carriers, unlike Alaska, all have large networks, in some cases global, and substantially different operating models. They are between 3 to 5 times larger than Alaska and, due to their larger size and scale, they maintain strong networks with large numbers of corporate accounts and high revenue customers who demand frequency and breadth of service that can only be provided by carriers of that size and scale. By contrast, Alaska earns almost half its domestic revenue from just two cities, Seattle and San Francisco. For these reasons, it cannot be considered a global network."
Unfortunately for us, size and business model do matter to the NMB.
My prediction...
There will be more mediation sessions in March and April. In each the company will offer more money but will not back down on PBS. The NMB will insist that the company's offer is more than reasonable and we can take it or sit on ice. Sound familiar? The NC will put a TA similar to Spirit's (including PBS) out to a vote later this year.
That's where my prediction ends. It's up to the Frontier pilots to decide if PBS is worth it. Any contract with PBS is an automatic no for me, but I'm just one vote.
Remember, PBS is a concession. Period. Any gains (higher hourly rates, retirement DC, etc) can easily be stripped away in bankruptcy. Sure Frontier is very profitable today, but ask anyone who was flying in 2001 if they thought their airline would file bankruptcy in the near future on September 10th, 2001.
"In awarding these increases, we are satisfied that Alaska pilots will be properly ranked just behind the four leading industry carriers.5 There is reason for such relative juxtaposition, but it is also true that Alaska is not properly considered fully comparable to American, Delta, United or Southwest. Those carriers, unlike Alaska, all have large networks, in some cases global, and substantially different operating models. They are between 3 to 5 times larger than Alaska and, due to their larger size and scale, they maintain strong networks with large numbers of corporate accounts and high revenue customers who demand frequency and breadth of service that can only be provided by carriers of that size and scale. By contrast, Alaska earns almost half its domestic revenue from just two cities, Seattle and San Francisco. For these reasons, it cannot be considered a global network."
Unfortunately for us, size and business model do matter to the NMB.
My prediction...
There will be more mediation sessions in March and April. In each the company will offer more money but will not back down on PBS. The NMB will insist that the company's offer is more than reasonable and we can take it or sit on ice. Sound familiar? The NC will put a TA similar to Spirit's (including PBS) out to a vote later this year.
That's where my prediction ends. It's up to the Frontier pilots to decide if PBS is worth it. Any contract with PBS is an automatic no for me, but I'm just one vote.
Remember, PBS is a concession. Period. Any gains (higher hourly rates, retirement DC, etc) can easily be stripped away in bankruptcy. Sure Frontier is very profitable today, but ask anyone who was flying in 2001 if they thought their airline would file bankruptcy in the near future on September 10th, 2001.
Not sure how outside arbitration awards have any place inside the mediation process with the NMB, UNLESS that arbitration award directly names both parties that are in mediation.
02-23-2018, 08:16 PM
#1044
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 617
Originally Posted by DrJekyll MrHyde
So let me get this straight. The arbitration award for LOA67 where our company was found to be negotiating in bad faith has ZERO bearing on our mediation with the NMB? And the arbitration award for pay, benefits, and scope from another airline(s) (that has no association with our company) has a HEAVY bearing on the opinions of the NMB? I asked the first question because you chose to include an Alaska-Virgin arbitration award, but not our own arbitration award.
Not sure how outside arbitration awards have any place inside the mediation process with the NMB, UNLESS that arbitration award directly names both parties that are in mediation.
Not sure how outside arbitration awards have any place inside the mediation process with the NMB, UNLESS that arbitration award directly names both parties that are in mediation.
I'm not saying nothing will come of LOA 67. We'll likely all get a check as a result of the final deal, but the mindset of the NMB is pro-company. It's been that way for years. Though we'd like to think that somehow the NMB favors Frontier pilots more than other pilot groups, it's not true.
02-23-2018, 08:41 PM
#1045
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,228
Originally Posted by OpenClimb
I agree. Look at the Spirit vote. They’re making a HUGE concession with PBS and are still $30/hr short of industry standard pay AND falling short on the 401k AND giving up some screwball provision that effectively turns even lineholders into airport ready reserves...
AND I bet their TA passes by at least 80/20.
Never underestimate the shortsightedness of a pilot group.
I expect the same general outcome here at Frontier. A sup-par TA followed by heavy rationalization and an ALPA sales job leading to passage of an industry trailing 5 year contract that will once-again be followed by 3 or more years of negotiations leading to another industry-trailing CBA. Rinse and repeat.
For the inevitable “why don’t you just quit?” retort. Believe me: I consider it almost every day I leave work. The truth is that at my age, I’m stuck at F9 if I’m going to continue life as a 121 pilot. The truth is that I frequently consider selling most everything I own so I can abandon this ongoing dumpster fire and make ends meet as a worker bee at Home Depot. It may happen at some point. In more than 30 years worth of jobs, I’ve never been so disgusted with a job and dreaded going to work more than this period of my life.
AND I bet their TA passes by at least 80/20.
Never underestimate the shortsightedness of a pilot group.
I expect the same general outcome here at Frontier. A sup-par TA followed by heavy rationalization and an ALPA sales job leading to passage of an industry trailing 5 year contract that will once-again be followed by 3 or more years of negotiations leading to another industry-trailing CBA. Rinse and repeat.
For the inevitable “why don’t you just quit?” retort. Believe me: I consider it almost every day I leave work. The truth is that at my age, I’m stuck at F9 if I’m going to continue life as a 121 pilot. The truth is that I frequently consider selling most everything I own so I can abandon this ongoing dumpster fire and make ends meet as a worker bee at Home Depot. It may happen at some point. In more than 30 years worth of jobs, I’ve never been so disgusted with a job and dreaded going to work more than this period of my life.
On a personal note, I think if you are this unhappy to be a pilot at F9 right now I think you would be whining even with legacy rates and I wonder if you have ever worked outside aviation. I have no degree and worked before I started flying at age 30. With the TA I will make $200.000 a year, working half the month, I can't think of any job that equals that. Yes DL rates are $20-$40 higher than ours, and the TA is lacking, but it is a massive improvement over C2010.
02-23-2018, 08:57 PM
#1046
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Position: A318-320 Front row, left of center
Posts: 49
Originally Posted by symbian simian
Just to clarify, there will be no ready reserve. If scheduling tells you to stay at the airport for reassignment, they have to have something planned for you, it cannot be "we are not sure what is going on, so hang tight for a few hours". Also, the moment they tell you to wait you get 2 hours of credit, on top of anything else scheduled, regardless if you fly.
On a personal note, I think if you are this unhappy to be a pilot at F9 right now I think you would be whining even with legacy rates and I wonder if you have ever worked outside aviation. I have no degree and worked before I started flying at age 30. With the TA I will make $200.000 a year, working half the month, I can't think of any job that equals that. Yes DL rates are $20-$40 higher than ours, and the TA is lacking, but it is a massive improvement over C2010.
On a personal note, I think if you are this unhappy to be a pilot at F9 right now I think you would be whining even with legacy rates and I wonder if you have ever worked outside aviation. I have no degree and worked before I started flying at age 30. With the TA I will make $200.000 a year, working half the month, I can't think of any job that equals that. Yes DL rates are $20-$40 higher than ours, and the TA is lacking, but it is a massive improvement over C2010.
02-24-2018, 05:51 AM
#1048
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: A320
Posts: 127
Originally Posted by UNSUBSCRIBE
Lol, that moron is about to enjoy a MASSIVE 50% increase in Pay and retirement.
Anyway, good luck, you’re gonna need it
Anyway, good luck, you’re gonna need it
02-24-2018, 07:54 AM
#1049
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 409
Originally Posted by kspilot
Point still stands that this is the only airline thread in the majors section that you can come to and brag about your contract.
Looking forward to seeing what F9 & JB guys are able to obtain. JBs RSV rules need a lot of work, as does their healthcare, dont see their pay going up very much. Anyway, goodluck. You guys need to worry about improving your contract and compare whatever TA you get to your current contract, not Delta or UALs.....
02-24-2018, 08:38 AM
#1050
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,002
Originally Posted by UNSUBSCRIBE
Oh jesus what are you in HS? Bragging? It isnt about getting “Likes”, lol.
Looking forward to seeing what F9 & JB guys are able to obtain. JBs RSV rules need a lot of work, as does their healthcare, dont see their pay going up very much. Anyway, goodluck. You guys need to worry about improving your contract and compare whatever TA you get to your current contract, not Delta or UALs.....
Looking forward to seeing what F9 & JB guys are able to obtain. JBs RSV rules need a lot of work, as does their healthcare, dont see their pay going up very much. Anyway, goodluck. You guys need to worry about improving your contract and compare whatever TA you get to your current contract, not Delta or UALs.....
JB reserve rules have been TA'd and have heard from multiple sources that its industry leading. Company came back during the last negotiating session and proposed Alaska -1%, so that definitely has to improve. Pay will definitely go up from where it currently is or will be voted down.
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