Frontier Negotiations Discussion
03-10-2018 | 05:51 AM
#1171
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Dude, with great respect, I don't know what you're smoking.
This industry is better off if Frontier closes its doors than for us to accept some low-ball offer. Pretty much every junior guy I know has extremely high standards for a contract in terms of scope, days off, retirement, compensation, and retroactive pay.
You asked about the junior pilot perspective. Here it is:
Staying is easier, so we'd rather this place become worth staying at. But if it doesn't, we don't want to leave it standing.
This industry is better off if Frontier closes its doors than for us to accept some low-ball offer. Pretty much every junior guy I know has extremely high standards for a contract in terms of scope, days off, retirement, compensation, and retroactive pay.
You asked about the junior pilot perspective. Here it is:
Staying is easier, so we'd rather this place become worth staying at. But if it doesn't, we don't want to leave it standing.
03-10-2018 | 09:52 AM
#1172
Banned
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: A318-320 Front row, left of center
Ultimately we are at the mercy of the NMB. If they think that they can decide what's "fair" then we will be forced into choosing between voting on a mediocre contract or maintaining status quo. My preference in that case would be to send a resounding NO vote (80% or more) to the company and the NMB.
Threaten me all you want. If it's not industry standard I'm not supporting it.[/QUOTE]
I agree that the NMB controls the direction and speed of this process. Where I disagree with you is I don't think we will ever get to vote on a TA with the purpose of voting it down (80% or more) to send a message to the company and the NMB. Hence I made the point that any TA that the Union brings before us will pass. I trust the unions judgment on what is worth voting on.
Problem is that Spirit was the last Union that was allowed to strike, who was on the other side of the table? JN and this indigo company. They are well versed in how to drag out the process. If the NMB was really concerned about progress or considering releasing F9 the offers from the company would be getting closer to industry standard not farther away. Why throw PBS at us? Why lower the pay rates again? I wonder if there is a plan in place to merge with another carrier that already has PBS and the company's argument is that it needs now to be added to our contract.
I hope we are released after the next meeting, but wasn't our very last session supposed to be last Sept when the company was warned to come prepared ready to finish this? Since then it just drags on and on. Now we have two new members on the NMB and no end in sight.
If this takes another year or two this will be my last contract before I retire. 1-2 years to finish this one, plus a 5 year contract plus 3-5 years for the next contract equals 9-11 years before the next one. This is the best environment for us to get the contract we deserve, now is the time!
I hope I'm wrong about this dragging on and on, I am committed to a industry standard contract!
100% ready to strike
Threaten me all you want. If it's not industry standard I'm not supporting it.[/QUOTE]
I agree that the NMB controls the direction and speed of this process. Where I disagree with you is I don't think we will ever get to vote on a TA with the purpose of voting it down (80% or more) to send a message to the company and the NMB. Hence I made the point that any TA that the Union brings before us will pass. I trust the unions judgment on what is worth voting on.
Problem is that Spirit was the last Union that was allowed to strike, who was on the other side of the table? JN and this indigo company. They are well versed in how to drag out the process. If the NMB was really concerned about progress or considering releasing F9 the offers from the company would be getting closer to industry standard not farther away. Why throw PBS at us? Why lower the pay rates again? I wonder if there is a plan in place to merge with another carrier that already has PBS and the company's argument is that it needs now to be added to our contract.
I hope we are released after the next meeting, but wasn't our very last session supposed to be last Sept when the company was warned to come prepared ready to finish this? Since then it just drags on and on. Now we have two new members on the NMB and no end in sight.
If this takes another year or two this will be my last contract before I retire. 1-2 years to finish this one, plus a 5 year contract plus 3-5 years for the next contract equals 9-11 years before the next one. This is the best environment for us to get the contract we deserve, now is the time!
I hope I'm wrong about this dragging on and on, I am committed to a industry standard contract!
100% ready to strike
03-10-2018 | 10:21 AM
#1173
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Personally I would prefer they put a mediocre contract out for a vote with no comment (no road shows or telling us why it's a good deal) and let the piece of crap speak for itself.
At least a strong no vote would be progress. Sitting on ice won't get us anywhere if it's because the NMB thinks we're being greedy.
Also, 100% ready to strike!
03-10-2018 | 10:38 AM
#1174
Banned
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: A318-320 Front row, left of center
So if the NMB treats us as they did Spirit (telling us to vote on the company's offer or sit "on ice") you think the MEC would just let it sit indefinitely? I don't know the answer to that question.
Personally I would prefer they put a mediocre contract out for a vote with no comment (no road shows or telling us why it's a good deal) and let the piece of crap speak for itself.
At least a strong no vote would be progress. Sitting on ice won't get us anywhere if it's because the NMB thinks we're being greedy.
Also, 100% ready to strike!
Personally I would prefer they put a mediocre contract out for a vote with no comment (no road shows or telling us why it's a good deal) and let the piece of crap speak for itself.
At least a strong no vote would be progress. Sitting on ice won't get us anywhere if it's because the NMB thinks we're being greedy.
Also, 100% ready to strike!
Interesting point. I like it!
03-10-2018 | 01:51 PM
#1175
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,764
Likes: 115
From: 1900D CA
The union is not sending us a TA unless they believe we should vote for it.
If the union took that gamble, which they won't, they would be taking the chance that we would vote it in. It's not going to happen. The NC isn't agreeing to language in mediated negotiations with the intention of us voting no on it. They will send us the best TA they can negotiate.
If the union took that gamble, which they won't, they would be taking the chance that we would vote it in. It's not going to happen. The NC isn't agreeing to language in mediated negotiations with the intention of us voting no on it. They will send us the best TA they can negotiate.
03-10-2018 | 01:57 PM
#1176
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
No offense, but sending a contract to vote just so it can be voted down is a colossal waste of everyone’s time. Our MEC polled the pilot group years ago when this process started. There a frequent PUB events and union town hall/lunch meetings. I don’t doubt that the union leaders have our best interests in mind and are aware of the collective pilot group’s priorities for a contract. If you do, contact a rep and voice your concerns.
03-10-2018 | 04:48 PM
#1177
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
My only issue is that our initial ask was based on data from 3 years ago. Delta and United will be north of $280/hr next year and we will be at $245/hr(based on our ask). It just doesn’t seem like “into the pattern” to me! Unless of course the pattern is is making 20% less than our peers.
The company needs this more than we do. Based on past practice...we will be married to this deal for the next 8 years so if it takes a little longer than so be it. We can not cave to some mediocre deal.
The company needs this more than we do. Based on past practice...we will be married to this deal for the next 8 years so if it takes a little longer than so be it. We can not cave to some mediocre deal.
03-11-2018 | 06:24 AM
#1178
Gets Tuesdays off
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
!
Ok, I'll put aside how offensive and divisive this statement is for a sec so I can relay some perspective from a junior pilot.
Most of us junior guys toiled through multiple regionals just to get here, 3 for me. What we learned in the lost decade was the value of scope, work rules (including the impact of PBS), and seniority.
We aren't looking for $ signs temporarily and then running off to start at the bottom of another list so we can be furloughed again at the slightest sign of an economic downturn, fuel spike, or terrorist attack. We've been at the bottom, very bottom of a large hill where all the $#!/ collected for many years. There is no reason to sell ourselves short now, not after the decade+ of abuse we endured and with the uper hand.
I'm junior but I'm not young, I hope this won't be the last opportunity to finally get a contract I deserve, but it might be. I certainly won't **** it away for a few bucks.
Most of us junior guys toiled through multiple regionals just to get here, 3 for me. What we learned in the lost decade was the value of scope, work rules (including the impact of PBS), and seniority.
We aren't looking for $ signs temporarily and then running off to start at the bottom of another list so we can be furloughed again at the slightest sign of an economic downturn, fuel spike, or terrorist attack. We've been at the bottom, very bottom of a large hill where all the $#!/ collected for many years. There is no reason to sell ourselves short now, not after the decade+ of abuse we endured and with the uper hand.
I'm junior but I'm not young, I hope this won't be the last opportunity to finally get a contract I deserve, but it might be. I certainly won't **** it away for a few bucks.
03-11-2018 | 08:58 AM
#1179
Stirring the pot
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,618
Likes: 66
From: Off reserve 🤫
My only issue is that our initial ask was based on data from 3 years ago. Delta and United will be north of $280/hr next year and we will be at $245/hr(based on our ask). It just doesn’t seem like “into the pattern” to me! Unless of course the pattern is is making 20% less than our peers.
The company needs this more than we do. Based on past practice...we will be married to this deal for the next 8 years so if it takes a little longer than so be it. We can not cave to some mediocre deal.
The company needs this more than we do. Based on past practice...we will be married to this deal for the next 8 years so if it takes a little longer than so be it. We can not cave to some mediocre deal.
Industry standard at SIGNING not 2-3 years ago.....
100% retro
03-11-2018 | 10:55 AM
#1180
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Spoke w/ a Union rep who was on our flight and he said our ask of $245/hr has not changed. Said it was still at industry average if you factor in other compensation such as added retirement, keeping same work rules/flexibility, vacation slides, JA/VJA pay, 125% pay after 82 hrs, etc.
Also had a new hire on our jump seat this trip and they said the next class will not have a training contract and will have hotels paid for during training. We'll see if that is really true.
Also had a new hire on our jump seat this trip and they said the next class will not have a training contract and will have hotels paid for during training. We'll see if that is really true.
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