I’ve Already Decided
11-04-2018, 07:07 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 227
At Spirit many of us had the same “I’m a NO vote” mantra when we were presented with PBS. Now it seems most of us can’t wait till it takes effect because our increased trip and duty rigs kick in. If your scheduling committee will truly control PBS then I wouldn’t worry too much about it at this point. Wait to see what the PBS LOA says before making a decision. Additionally, I assume you all will be getting some better rigs in this deal. Better rigs means better pairings are built by the company. Then PBS (controlled by the union) places these more efficient trips on the pilots. I would hypothesize that most of your schedules would improve drastically. Wait to see the details, do your homework, talk to others, go to roadshows, and then vote based on what is best for you and your family. Congratulations on the AIP and good luck!
11-04-2018, 07:07 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 664
Originally Posted by Aero1900
Just a thought: I wonder if this is true because these smaller carriers have been coming from so far behind?
When you are payed 50% less, you feel a burning need to play catch up. SouthWest voted down a TA in their last negotiations, while they were comfortably making way more money than us. They weren't suffering. They were fighting to raise the bar to the top. It's far easier to vote a TA down from the comfort of your SeaRay while cruising around the lake your beach house is on. Same thing with Delta voting a TA down.
Spirit and Allegiant pilots voted on their TA from their repair shop waiting room while getting the AC serviced on their 1984 Corolla.
I'm not saying that either vote was right or wrong, but circumstances matter.
When you are payed 50% less, you feel a burning need to play catch up. SouthWest voted down a TA in their last negotiations, while they were comfortably making way more money than us. They weren't suffering. They were fighting to raise the bar to the top. It's far easier to vote a TA down from the comfort of your SeaRay while cruising around the lake your beach house is on. Same thing with Delta voting a TA down.
Spirit and Allegiant pilots voted on their TA from their repair shop waiting room while getting the AC serviced on their 1984 Corolla.
I'm not saying that either vote was right or wrong, but circumstances matter.
11-04-2018, 07:32 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: A320
Posts: 661
Originally Posted by F9 NO Voter
Yes, I realize this is a first time post. It is a first time post because, under my real screen name, it would be fairly easy to identify me and I am concerned about retaliation from the company....yes, I have grown to trust them that little.
I don’ t have to see this AIP / TA / whatever you want to call it to know that I will be a solid NO vote. The reason for this is that this is absolutely NOT the best this company can do. How do I know that? I know that because that’s not how negotiations work; something is ALWAYS held in reserve.
This company has more money / work rules held in reserve for the possibility of it not passing. They know that there is a quantifiable cost for any percentage point over 51% by which this thing would ratify. That is all they want and need....51%. That is all they’ve offered. I want more than that! I can assure you, this management group didn’t just decide overnight - out of the goodness of their benevolent hearts - to capitulate and give us a contract for Christmas. For some reason, known only to them, they need to get this done sooner rather than later. Do not fall for it, my brothers, YOU have the leverage!!! They don’t want to get this matter put to bed, they NEED to get this matter put to bed to make them even MORE money.
PBS is a concession. Period. There are no two ways about it. The only reason DL, UA, etc. have PBS today is because they gave it as a concession during bankruptcy.
Additionally, ALPA National wants to get this done so they can quit devoting time and resources to the process and move down the road and get ready for contract openers at DL, UA, etc., so their spin machine is going to be in full motion mixing up the Kool-Aid for us.
Don’t drink it, kids, it’s poison!!!
Do not fall for the ALPA spin and the Indigo trap. Do not drink the Kool-Aid. Stand strong, brothers, and hold the line. THERE IS MORE MONEY AND THEIR ARE MORE BENEFICIAL WORK RULES LEFT IN THAT WHEELBARROW!!!
I don’ t have to see this AIP / TA / whatever you want to call it to know that I will be a solid NO vote. The reason for this is that this is absolutely NOT the best this company can do. How do I know that? I know that because that’s not how negotiations work; something is ALWAYS held in reserve.
This company has more money / work rules held in reserve for the possibility of it not passing. They know that there is a quantifiable cost for any percentage point over 51% by which this thing would ratify. That is all they want and need....51%. That is all they’ve offered. I want more than that! I can assure you, this management group didn’t just decide overnight - out of the goodness of their benevolent hearts - to capitulate and give us a contract for Christmas. For some reason, known only to them, they need to get this done sooner rather than later. Do not fall for it, my brothers, YOU have the leverage!!! They don’t want to get this matter put to bed, they NEED to get this matter put to bed to make them even MORE money.
PBS is a concession. Period. There are no two ways about it. The only reason DL, UA, etc. have PBS today is because they gave it as a concession during bankruptcy.
Additionally, ALPA National wants to get this done so they can quit devoting time and resources to the process and move down the road and get ready for contract openers at DL, UA, etc., so their spin machine is going to be in full motion mixing up the Kool-Aid for us.
Don’t drink it, kids, it’s poison!!!
Do not fall for the ALPA spin and the Indigo trap. Do not drink the Kool-Aid. Stand strong, brothers, and hold the line. THERE IS MORE MONEY AND THEIR ARE MORE BENEFICIAL WORK RULES LEFT IN THAT WHEELBARROW!!!
11-04-2018, 07:41 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 410
Originally Posted by Aero1900
Just a thought: I wonder if this is true because these smaller carriers have been coming from so far behind?
When you are payed 50% less, you feel a burning need to play catch up. SouthWest voted down a TA in their last negotiations, while they were comfortably making way more money than us. They weren't suffering. They were fighting to raise the bar to the top. It's far easier to vote a TA down from the comfort of your SeaRay while cruising around the lake your beach house is on. Same thing with Delta voting a TA down.
Spirit and Allegiant pilots voted on their TA from their repair shop waiting room while getting the AC serviced on their 1984 Corolla.
I'm not saying that either vote was right or wrong, but circumstances matter.
When you are payed 50% less, you feel a burning need to play catch up. SouthWest voted down a TA in their last negotiations, while they were comfortably making way more money than us. They weren't suffering. They were fighting to raise the bar to the top. It's far easier to vote a TA down from the comfort of your SeaRay while cruising around the lake your beach house is on. Same thing with Delta voting a TA down.
Spirit and Allegiant pilots voted on their TA from their repair shop waiting room while getting the AC serviced on their 1984 Corolla.
I'm not saying that either vote was right or wrong, but circumstances matter.
Those SWA pilots weren't always well paid. They began raising the bar when they were saving money to get the window crank fixed on their '71 Pinto so they could roll the window down.
We need to take a lesson from them.
11-04-2018, 07:45 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,395
Originally Posted by ColdWhiskey
Don't forget that SWA pilots have been raising the bar for a LONG time. They began raising the bar when they were a small lowly LCC group trailing the majors in every fashion.
Those SWA pilots weren't always well paid. They began raising the bar when they were saving money to get the window crank fixed on their '71 Pinto so they could roll the window down.
We need to take a lesson from them.
Those SWA pilots weren't always well paid. They began raising the bar when they were saving money to get the window crank fixed on their '71 Pinto so they could roll the window down.
We need to take a lesson from them.
11-04-2018, 07:57 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 465
Originally Posted by Wheelswatch
Don't be afraid of "more time" and "time value of money" etc. Those are scaredy-cat words. The company will be back post-haste with a new TA.
For the first time in forever, we hold the cards. But if human nature is any predictor, we will sell ourselves short because we lack basic courage.
If this TA is brilliant, and every bit what we deserve, then vote it it in. But if you vote yes, even slightly, out of fear you're pathetic!
For the first time in forever, we hold the cards. But if human nature is any predictor, we will sell ourselves short because we lack basic courage.
If this TA is brilliant, and every bit what we deserve, then vote it it in. But if you vote yes, even slightly, out of fear you're pathetic!
That said, I also explained that a shortfall equating to $15/hr whether in actual money or work rule value would almost certainly be worth fighting for because as long as the renegotiation takes less than a year it would still be worth it. Things to take note of are the length of the contract and % of lost wages of the signing bonus. The shorter the contract duration the lower value and increase would have over that time period and higher % reduces the value of returning to the table as there is less upward movement available there.
All it means is, look at the package. How close is it to what you want? Its not going to be what you want, I want 75 hr guarantee with 1 turn per month at $1,000/hr. Thats not going to happen...this isn't to say set yourself up for disappointment, just learn what our peers actually have. How do we compare? We MUST be leading in some areas, but you would then expect to fall just a touch short somewhere else. JetBlue's is decent, but its not Delta or United. I could guarantee there will be areas that we will not like. The questions will be how much are those parts worth, how much do the good parts make up for them, and how long might it take to fix what we don't like. Again based on my previous talks with our NC, I feel they did understand this time value, I don't believe they would send us something that is junk.
Read the TA in its entirety when we get it. Decide if it is worth it to you. If we can do better and get it done within a reasonable amount of time (another year or two) then by all means lets vote it down.
11-04-2018, 08:12 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Left
Posts: 192
Originally Posted by Aero1900
Just a thought: I wonder if this is true because these smaller carriers have been coming from so far behind?
When you are payed 50% less, you feel a burning need to play catch up. SouthWest voted down a TA in their last negotiations, while they were comfortably making way more money than us. They weren't suffering. They were fighting to raise the bar to the top. It's far easier to vote a TA down from the comfort of your SeaRay while cruising around the lake your beach house is on. Same thing with Delta voting a TA down.
Spirit and Allegiant pilots voted on their TA from their repair shop waiting room while getting the AC serviced on their 1984 Corolla.
I'm not saying that either vote was right or wrong, but circumstances matter.
When you are payed 50% less, you feel a burning need to play catch up. SouthWest voted down a TA in their last negotiations, while they were comfortably making way more money than us. They weren't suffering. They were fighting to raise the bar to the top. It's far easier to vote a TA down from the comfort of your SeaRay while cruising around the lake your beach house is on. Same thing with Delta voting a TA down.
Spirit and Allegiant pilots voted on their TA from their repair shop waiting room while getting the AC serviced on their 1984 Corolla.
I'm not saying that either vote was right or wrong, but circumstances matter.
I really hope you guys have an AIP/TA/Contract that blows ours out of the water because 1) you’re a good group and you have dealt with a lot of ****** over the last 10 years 2) it will give our guys some buyers remorse and hopefully invigor them for our next contract negotiations and 3) it will raise the bar for everyone.
I just caution you not to expect Delta plus 10 percent with 15 percent direct contribution and 6 hour min day at DOS. Where you are at now is largely going to determine where your AIP/TA is. Read your TA, attend your road shows, and ask the tough questions. At the end of the day, if the TA works for you, vote it in. If you feel that you’re worth more than they are presenting AND you’re able to live under your current contract for an undefined up to indefinite period of time, vote no. Also keep in mind that the fact that F9 currently cannot attract pilots is may be the current case, but is definitely a variable that can change if, for example, the economy falters.
For the record, I was a no vote (I know, every one is a no after the fact, believe me), not because of PBS or the pay rates. I was a no because our reserve drops were gutted and because we gave way too much schedule flexibility within our working footprint for what we got in return and I could have lived just fine under our former contract indefinitely if needed.
Last edited by 319wisperer; 11-04-2018 at 08:41 AM.
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