I’ve Already Decided
11-04-2018, 05:54 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 497
Originally Posted by Triggerfish
Everyone keeps saying, wait for the details to decide. The scary thing is that I have had many conversations over the past week and you wouldnt believe how many people have said that they are already voting yes - without those same details.
I have heard statements like “well, let’s just get this one done, and we’ll do better next time” or “im just sick of waiting” or misguided sentiments that voting no is disrespectful to the NC. Rationalization and complete 180’s are running rampant in people who were super hardcore only a couple of weeks ago. Its sad.
From my viewpoint, every single solitary piece of Barry’s plan has worked out just the way he likes it, and all we have done is backtrack. He has beaten us into psychological submission and the proposed dollar signs are just barely big enough to keep us from seeing it.
Im a hard lean NO but i will hear the full story. Just making it known that from private conversations, this thing passed yesterday.
I have heard statements like “well, let’s just get this one done, and we’ll do better next time” or “im just sick of waiting” or misguided sentiments that voting no is disrespectful to the NC. Rationalization and complete 180’s are running rampant in people who were super hardcore only a couple of weeks ago. Its sad.
From my viewpoint, every single solitary piece of Barry’s plan has worked out just the way he likes it, and all we have done is backtrack. He has beaten us into psychological submission and the proposed dollar signs are just barely big enough to keep us from seeing it.
Im a hard lean NO but i will hear the full story. Just making it known that from private conversations, this thing passed yesterday.
It’s frightening that people have already decided to vote yes. Especially considering PBS. You have got to be crazy to say such a thing.
11-04-2018, 06:01 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
Originally Posted by Missed Appch
It’s frightening that people have already decided to vote yes. Especially considering PBS. You have got to be crazy to say such a thing.
11-04-2018, 06:23 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2018
Posts: 380
“ Between now and the release of the full TA language and supporting information, you are likely to hear many rumors and much speculation about the terms or impact of the new agreement. We encourage you to wait for solid information presented by the MEC and/or Negotiating Committee. It's critical for members to receive accurate and factual information and to make a decision on the contract as a whole.”
So did everyone in this tread miss this part of the email. I bet you guys all snuck into your parents closet before Christmas to see your presents before they got wrapped.
So did everyone in this tread miss this part of the email. I bet you guys all snuck into your parents closet before Christmas to see your presents before they got wrapped.
11-04-2018, 06:24 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,395
Originally Posted by Wheelswatch
I'm trying to get my head around why it is a pilot group like Delta has what it takes to kick back a TA, but a pilot group like NK doesn't.
If we could understand the difference we might glean answers that would help us once presented with our TA.
Whatever the reasons, there is something amiss that allows companies like Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier to take advantage of the nonsensical notion that we deserve less. More perplexing is the fact that so many of our pilots accept this
If we could understand the difference we might glean answers that would help us once presented with our TA.
Whatever the reasons, there is something amiss that allows companies like Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier to take advantage of the nonsensical notion that we deserve less. More perplexing is the fact that so many of our pilots accept this
When you are payed 50% less, you feel a burning need to play catch up. SouthWest voted down a TA in their last negotiations, while they were comfortably making way more money than us. They weren't suffering. They were fighting to raise the bar to the top. It's far easier to vote a TA down from the comfort of your SeaRay while cruising around the lake your beach house is on. Same thing with Delta voting a TA down.
Spirit and Allegiant pilots voted on their TA from their repair shop waiting room while getting the AC serviced on their 1984 Corolla.
I'm not saying that either vote was right or wrong, but circumstances matter.
11-04-2018, 06:28 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 410
Originally Posted by Wheelswatch
I'm trying to get my head around why it is a pilot group like Delta has what it takes to kick back a TA, but a pilot group like NK doesn't.
11-04-2018, 06:32 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Underpaid, LCC
Posts: 263
Originally Posted by Wheelswatch
I'm trying to get my head around why it is a pilot group like Delta has what it takes to kick back a TA, but a pilot group like NK doesn't.
If we could understand the difference we might glean answers that would help us once presented with our TA.
It must be partly because ALPA national gives vastly more support to the big carrier?
Is it because their education campaign is better? Do they corral their pilots together more effectively?
Someone once told me that our guys are forced to still go out and fly the line while in Section 6, whereas the Delta and United NC/MEC are released from all flying to do their job for the union. Anyone know if this is true, because that's a huge penalty for us if it is.
Whatever the reasons, there is something amiss that allows companies like Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier to take advantage of the nonsensical notion that we deserve less. More perplexing is the fact that so many of our pilots accept this as true.
Listen, our unity WAS lacking, but recently it has come together quite impressively. We've done the hard part, we've fought a brutal battle. Fate showed us favor: the landscape changed; the school house is empty, and planes are getting parked. We have won! All that is left to do is walk in, plant the flag, and claim the victory. Why in the name of everything good would we cede anything major at this point?
Don't be afraid of "more time" and "time value of money" etc. Those are scaredy-cat words. The company will be back post-haste with a new TA.
For the first time in forever, we hold the cards. But if human nature is any predictor, we will sell ourselves short because we lack basic courage.
If this TA is brilliant, and every bit what we deserve, then vote it it in. But if you vote yes, even slightly, out of fear you're pathetic!
If we could understand the difference we might glean answers that would help us once presented with our TA.
It must be partly because ALPA national gives vastly more support to the big carrier?
Is it because their education campaign is better? Do they corral their pilots together more effectively?
Someone once told me that our guys are forced to still go out and fly the line while in Section 6, whereas the Delta and United NC/MEC are released from all flying to do their job for the union. Anyone know if this is true, because that's a huge penalty for us if it is.
Whatever the reasons, there is something amiss that allows companies like Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier to take advantage of the nonsensical notion that we deserve less. More perplexing is the fact that so many of our pilots accept this as true.
Listen, our unity WAS lacking, but recently it has come together quite impressively. We've done the hard part, we've fought a brutal battle. Fate showed us favor: the landscape changed; the school house is empty, and planes are getting parked. We have won! All that is left to do is walk in, plant the flag, and claim the victory. Why in the name of everything good would we cede anything major at this point?
Don't be afraid of "more time" and "time value of money" etc. Those are scaredy-cat words. The company will be back post-haste with a new TA.
For the first time in forever, we hold the cards. But if human nature is any predictor, we will sell ourselves short because we lack basic courage.
If this TA is brilliant, and every bit what we deserve, then vote it it in. But if you vote yes, even slightly, out of fear you're pathetic!
This exactly! Currently on this very page of APC there are 5 ads to come work here. That looks like company desperation to me. Guys let’s look at it like this. Has the growth happened? Yes. Has the company controlled every aspect of the timing? Yes. Is the company in a bind if we say no? ABSOLUTELY! Would the whole process take another year? Highly doubt it probably only a few months.
Read the thing and if it checks the boxes you need vote, “Yes” if not vote, “No”.
Lastly NO IT IS NOT OK TO HAVE YOUR BUDDIES APPLY YET!
11-04-2018, 06:36 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Position: Bus CA
Posts: 658
Originally Posted by Aero1900
Just a thought: I wonder if this is true because these smaller carriers have been coming from so far behind?
When you are payed 50% less, you feel a burning need to play catch up. SouthWest voted down a TA in their last negotiations, while they were comfortably making way more money than us. They weren't suffering. They were fighting to raise the bar to the top. It's far easier to vote a TA down from the comfort of your SeaRay while cruising around the lake your beach house is on. Same thing with Delta voting a TA down.
Spirit and Allegiant pilots voted on their TA from their repair shop waiting room while getting the AC serviced on their 1984 Corolla.
I'm not saying that either vote was right or wrong, but circumstances matter.
When you are payed 50% less, you feel a burning need to play catch up. SouthWest voted down a TA in their last negotiations, while they were comfortably making way more money than us. They weren't suffering. They were fighting to raise the bar to the top. It's far easier to vote a TA down from the comfort of your SeaRay while cruising around the lake your beach house is on. Same thing with Delta voting a TA down.
Spirit and Allegiant pilots voted on their TA from their repair shop waiting room while getting the AC serviced on their 1984 Corolla.
I'm not saying that either vote was right or wrong, but circumstances matter.
11-04-2018, 06:37 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 550
Originally Posted by Triggerfish
Everyone keeps saying, wait for the details to decide. The scary thing is that I have had many conversations over the past week and you wouldnt believe how many people have said that they are already voting yes - without those same details.
You have to look at all the junior guys in each seat, who's lives would be unaffected by PBS. They will still fly redeyes and weekends, so FU pay me.
You have to look at the ones within 5 years of retirement who will vote for anything, because waiting even 3 months will cost them more than any gain we may achieve. So whatever pay me.
You have to look at all the guys who flew INC this summer, who will drop to their knees and suckle anything with a dollar sign the company gives them. So yes daddy, please pay me.
You'll need to look at the bottom voting 400, because they've been living hand to mouth on 70 hours at ridiculously low wages trying to feed their families. Good luck explaining to the wife why you are turning down a $65,000 raise because a sentence in the scheduling language has the words "whenever possible" in it. Sorry man, pay me.
Then you'll have the guys who will look at a $75M ratification bonus and see a new Tesla in the driveway. Those guys were yes voters all along, no matter what.
Lots and lots of defacto yes voters. Getting them to change their minds is going to be a monumental challenge. I applaud those chanting NO this soon, but I think you may be preaching to empty pews.
11-04-2018, 06:57 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
Originally Posted by PulledBreaker
75-80% pass vote, watch.
You have to look at all the junior guys in each seat, who's lives would be unaffected by PBS. They will still fly redeyes and weekends, so FU pay me.
You have to look at the ones within 5 years of retirement who will vote for anything, because waiting even 3 months will cost them more than any gain we may achieve. So whatever pay me.
You have to look at all the guys who flew INC this summer, who will drop to their knees and suckle anything with a dollar sign the company gives them. So yes daddy, please pay me.
You'll need to look at the bottom voting 400, because they've been living hand to mouth on 70 hours at ridiculously low wages trying to feed their families. Good luck explaining to the wife why you are turning down a $65,000 raise because a sentence in the scheduling language has the words "whenever possible" in it. Sorry man, pay me.
Then you'll have the guys who will look at a $75M ratification bonus and see a new Tesla in the driveway. Those guys were yes voters all along, no matter what.
Lots and lots of defacto yes voters. Getting them to change their minds is going to be a monumental challenge. I applaud those chanting NO this soon, but I think you may be preaching to empty pews.
You have to look at all the junior guys in each seat, who's lives would be unaffected by PBS. They will still fly redeyes and weekends, so FU pay me.
You have to look at the ones within 5 years of retirement who will vote for anything, because waiting even 3 months will cost them more than any gain we may achieve. So whatever pay me.
You have to look at all the guys who flew INC this summer, who will drop to their knees and suckle anything with a dollar sign the company gives them. So yes daddy, please pay me.
You'll need to look at the bottom voting 400, because they've been living hand to mouth on 70 hours at ridiculously low wages trying to feed their families. Good luck explaining to the wife why you are turning down a $65,000 raise because a sentence in the scheduling language has the words "whenever possible" in it. Sorry man, pay me.
Then you'll have the guys who will look at a $75M ratification bonus and see a new Tesla in the driveway. Those guys were yes voters all along, no matter what.
Lots and lots of defacto yes voters. Getting them to change their minds is going to be a monumental challenge. I applaud those chanting NO this soon, but I think you may be preaching to empty pews.
........
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