How long for a contract?
09-18-2025 | 05:31 AM
#2011
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,780
Likes: 64
A big reason was first year pay being ~$38 per hour. Your union solved that problem for mgmt via LOA 4 in your current contract. Otherwise, first year pay would be ~$56 per hour as we speak. Lower than all regionals. That would at least give you some leverage going into this potential hiring spree.
FAPA actually did that. Took first year pay down to cal and amr. Went from 55 to 30ish per hr. Guess what. Pilots still applied and there was no issue filling classes. That tells me right there your assumed leverage doesn’t exist and that loa was a monetary gain.
Last edited by fcoolaiddrinker; 09-18-2025 at 05:50 AM.
09-18-2025 | 06:13 AM
#2012
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 205
Likes: 9
I’ll disagree. We would still be getting the same applicants we are today. The union made a monetary gain outside sec 6 for our pilots. Here’s an idea, let’s lower our vacation accrual first year so next round nobody will want to come here to provide some leverage. That’s your logic. Lol.
FAPA actually did that. Took first year pay down to cal and amr. Went from 55 to 30ish per hr. Guess what. Pilots still applied and there was no issue filling classes. That tells me right there your assumed leverage doesn’t exist and that loa was a monetary gain.
FAPA actually did that. Took first year pay down to cal and amr. Went from 55 to 30ish per hr. Guess what. Pilots still applied and there was no issue filling classes. That tells me right there your assumed leverage doesn’t exist and that loa was a monetary gain.
09-18-2025 | 06:23 AM
#2013
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,780
Likes: 64
That second protection does provide ammo for the 50k bonus argument. In fairness that language was agreed to already but somehow didn’t make it into the ta.
In the end, like I mentioned having a low first year payrate doesn’t provide the leverage you would think it does. All carriers went away from it years ago. That’s a good thing imo. It’s more money for pilots over a career. We can just disagree. No problem.
Last edited by fcoolaiddrinker; 09-18-2025 at 07:04 AM.
09-18-2025 | 07:45 AM
#2014
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,780
Likes: 64
That is a good point however you’re leaving out the protections. Once it goes up it cannot go down and it can’t exceed year 2.
That second protection does provide ammo for the 50k bonus argument. In fairness that language was agreed to already but somehow didn’t make it into the ta.
In the end, like I mentioned having a low first year payrate doesn’t provide the leverage you would think it does. All carriers went away from it years ago. That’s a good thing imo. It’s more money for pilots over a career. We can just disagree. No problem.
That second protection does provide ammo for the 50k bonus argument. In fairness that language was agreed to already but somehow didn’t make it into the ta.
In the end, like I mentioned having a low first year payrate doesn’t provide the leverage you would think it does. All carriers went away from it years ago. That’s a good thing imo. It’s more money for pilots over a career. We can just disagree. No problem.
Doesn’t really matter management wanted it fairly early on with no protections. Obviously we wanted a higher rate out of the gate. And that’s where we ended up.
Last edited by fcoolaiddrinker; 09-18-2025 at 08:10 AM.
09-18-2025 | 12:22 PM
#2015
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 112
From: Lineholder
I haven't looked lately but there used to be a couple of APC threads debating F9 vs regional w/ the main reasons being the type rating AND the fact that the Big 4 hire from ULCCs to weaken them. First year pay could be same a flight instructor rate and people would still apply (perhaps not 1st but at least after not hearing from the others).
We will remain the stepping stone airline regardless of 1st year pay (or lack thereof). Increasing it was a win.
09-18-2025 | 12:51 PM
#2016
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,780
Likes: 64
I agree.
I haven't looked lately but there used to be a couple of APC threads debating F9 vs regional w/ the main reasons being the type rating AND the fact that the Big 4 hire from ULCCs to weaken them. First year pay could be same a flight instructor rate and people would still apply (perhaps not 1st but at least after not hearing from the others).
We will remain the stepping stone airline regardless of 1st year pay (or lack thereof). Increasing it was a win.
I haven't looked lately but there used to be a couple of APC threads debating F9 vs regional w/ the main reasons being the type rating AND the fact that the Big 4 hire from ULCCs to weaken them. First year pay could be same a flight instructor rate and people would still apply (perhaps not 1st but at least after not hearing from the others).
We will remain the stepping stone airline regardless of 1st year pay (or lack thereof). Increasing it was a win.
I’m glad we can finally agree on something. Lol. And It didn’t even add to the cost of our initial proposal to get to where we wanted. I’m mean there’s very little downside to that imo.
10-10-2025 | 06:27 PM
#2018
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 463
Likes: 58
If your business model only works when your pilots are underpaid by 50% that’s a ****ty business model and definitely not sustainable.
10-10-2025 | 07:08 PM
#2019
On Reserve
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 53
Likes: 2
This is exactly why so many union and management pilots have left in droves. They had a quick look under the hood and ran instead of walked to the door. I am afraid it may finally be time to give up on this place. Lots of 20 year plus guys are about to bail. Sadly, that is exactly what the most incompetent airline management team in history wants.
10-11-2025 | 05:16 AM
#2020
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 463
Likes: 58
This is exactly why so many union and management pilots have left in droves. They had a quick look under the hood and ran instead of walked to the door. I am afraid it may finally be time to give up on this place. Lots of 20 year plus guys are about to bail. Sadly, that is exactly what the most incompetent airline management team in history wants.
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