How long for a contract?
10-11-2025 | 07:23 AM
#2021
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 433
Likes: 8
From: Zee Airboos
This is exactly why so many union and management pilots have left in droves. They had a quick look under the hood and ran instead of walked to the door. I am afraid it may finally be time to give up on this place. Lots of 20 year plus guys are about to bail. Sadly, that is exactly what the most incompetent airline management team in history wants.
Do legacy pilots get paid less because they have basic economy on their aircraft? No. The company's attempt to compare pay based on business model is just another veiled stall tactic. That's all the company wants, to stall and delay as long as they can. Every day we operate under this old contract is a day they save money on labor. The signing bonus will be a fraction of what we would have made with a new contract, so stalling is in the company's best interest. I've been saying contract 2030 for years. Every indicator says thats the path we are on.
10-11-2025 | 07:24 AM
#2022
On Reserve
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 164
Likes: 19
Based off the company data presented to the union it looks like we are about 18 months away from bankruptcy. Spirit shrinking may help but 30 additional aircraft we can’t fill with passengers over the next year may accelerate that. The flood of basic economy from the legacy airlines seems to be the nail in the coffin.
I came up with between 15-21 months depending on whether or not F9 taps into their $205M line of credit. I also went with status quo numbers with no fuel cost changes, no market surprises, no new pilot contract.
For monthly outflow, I took their 6-month spend listed at the end of June and converted it to monthly.
Source for $205M in credit is here: https://ir.flyfrontier.com/static-fi...1-abc6b2ba1a37 (Page 12/13).
10-11-2025 | 04:07 PM
#2023
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 1,564
Likes: 345
I agree with this analysis.
I came up with between 15-21 months depending on whether or not F9 taps into their $205M line of credit. I also went with status quo numbers with no fuel cost changes, no market surprises, no new pilot contract.
For monthly outflow, I took their 6-month spend listed at the end of June and converted it to monthly.
Source for $205M in credit is here: https://ir.flyfrontier.com/static-fi...1-abc6b2ba1a37 (Page 12/13).
I came up with between 15-21 months depending on whether or not F9 taps into their $205M line of credit. I also went with status quo numbers with no fuel cost changes, no market surprises, no new pilot contract.
For monthly outflow, I took their 6-month spend listed at the end of June and converted it to monthly.
Source for $205M in credit is here: https://ir.flyfrontier.com/static-fi...1-abc6b2ba1a37 (Page 12/13).
"As of June 30, 2025, we had $766 million of total available liquidity, consisting of $561 million in unrestricted cash and cash equivalents and $205 million in total undrawn capacity on our Revolving Loan Facility."
10-11-2025 | 04:33 PM
#2024
On Reserve
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 164
Likes: 19
Did you take out Restricted cash from the total cash? I found this statement on the balance sheet explanation, which didn't match the balance sheet because they included restricted cash as part of "total liquidity" but then put this in a statement...
"As of June 30, 2025, we had $766 million of total available liquidity, consisting of $561 million in unrestricted cash and cash equivalents and $205 million in total undrawn capacity on our Revolving Loan Facility."
"As of June 30, 2025, we had $766 million of total available liquidity, consisting of $561 million in unrestricted cash and cash equivalents and $205 million in total undrawn capacity on our Revolving Loan Facility."
10-12-2025 | 08:28 AM
#2026
On Reserve
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 135
Likes: 8
Profit
Correct me if I’m wrong. Didn’t we turn a profit last year. Why are we doing the sky is falling. Is it because some loon named Scott Kirby says so. We need to make corrections but I just don’t see us on the ledge.
10-12-2025 | 08:50 AM
#2027
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 451
Likes: 52
Unfortunately all these numbers can be checked on public sources. We aren’t far behind Spirit, and as legacy airlines continue to dump basic economy seats into the market it’s not going to get better.The profits being referenced were nothing more than accounting sleight of hand sale-leaseback transactions used to inject short-term cash while stacking long-term lease obligations onto the books. Strip away the sale-leaseback money and we are hemorrhaging cash.
10-12-2025 | 09:04 AM
#2028
On Reserve
Joined: Jun 2022
Posts: 164
Likes: 19
It's possible we get profitable sometime this year. It's possible we aren't. Fuel prices could change, we get a spike in pax, NK shrink aids our bottom line, a myriad of things can occur.
All I did was extrapolate figures current as of June and assumed status quo. Those figures show with an unchanged run rate we have 15-21 months of liquidity.
10-12-2025 | 10:59 AM
#2029
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 102
From: Joystick Operator
The latest Union email included a company presentation that a new contract would push Frontier into bankruptcy within 12 months. Over the past four years Frontier has burned through over $1 billion in negative free cash flow without a new contract in place.
Unfortunately all these numbers can be checked on public sources. We aren’t far behind Spirit, and as legacy airlines continue to dump basic economy seats into the market it’s not going to get better.The profits being referenced were nothing more than accounting sleight of hand sale-leaseback transactions used to inject short-term cash while stacking long-term lease obligations onto the books. Strip away the sale-leaseback money and we are hemorrhaging cash.
Unfortunately all these numbers can be checked on public sources. We aren’t far behind Spirit, and as legacy airlines continue to dump basic economy seats into the market it’s not going to get better.The profits being referenced were nothing more than accounting sleight of hand sale-leaseback transactions used to inject short-term cash while stacking long-term lease obligations onto the books. Strip away the sale-leaseback money and we are hemorrhaging cash.
If you are on the FB group, I suggest going and looking at some recent graphs and write up a certain financial guy turned pilot wrote.
Essentially, F9 is making it look meh right now due to SLB transactions and pre paying. A noticeable shift that happened right when negotiations opened.
10-12-2025 | 11:12 AM
#2030
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,025
Likes: 100
If an airline says that a competitive pilot contract will bankrupt the airline then they are either lying through their teeth to stall meaningful negotiations (which I think they are doing) OR the airline is already mismanaged into oblivion and a bankruptcy is coming regardless.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
