How long for a contract?
05-04-2026 | 01:49 PM
#2661
Stirring the pot
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,618
Likes: 66
From: Off reserve 🤫
thanks for the laugh
05-04-2026 | 04:20 PM
#2662
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,986
Likes: 112
From: Lineholder
Anyone want to share how the new NC is going to force the company to give us a contract with 'market rates'?
Explain how the union is going to circumvent the RLA?
What is happening is called capitalism. Frontier has no problems hiring and now that Spirit pilots are on the street, even less of a problem... Especially since our planned growth has come to a screeching halt.
Supply and demand. Simple.
Our last contract came when they couldn't get enough people in the door. It appears that is the ONLY factor for their decision to offer more money. Just look at WNs glacial negotiations, they only came around when their attrition soared.
Between the 165/169 burning the house down and NK kicking how many thousand pilots to the street? We aren't going to see a contract anytime soon, let alone one with 'market rates'.
Next thing I'd be watching for is management finding a way to pull the carpet from under the cadets...
Explain how the union is going to circumvent the RLA?
What is happening is called capitalism. Frontier has no problems hiring and now that Spirit pilots are on the street, even less of a problem... Especially since our planned growth has come to a screeching halt.
Supply and demand. Simple.
Our last contract came when they couldn't get enough people in the door. It appears that is the ONLY factor for their decision to offer more money. Just look at WNs glacial negotiations, they only came around when their attrition soared.
Between the 165/169 burning the house down and NK kicking how many thousand pilots to the street? We aren't going to see a contract anytime soon, let alone one with 'market rates'.
Next thing I'd be watching for is management finding a way to pull the carpet from under the cadets...
I have been very vocal/advocating that we test that premise. I honestly want to know if self help is a possibility. We are the smallest major airline outside of Avelo, we have almost negligible market share and we have been in existence long enough to matter. If self-help isn't allowed, then that makes not only our but EVERY pilot's options clear.
05-04-2026 | 04:46 PM
#2663
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,776
Likes: 63
This is completely correct - except for . . . time. Supposedly (believe it or not), the RLA allows for a provision that let's labor have the option of self-help. THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE ACE IN THE HOLE for all of labor. Now, if you don't believe that will ever be the case (as some do), then you're obviously beholding to your line of thinking above and, unfortunately, they system is broken and there really isn't hope outside of mgt good will.
I have been very vocal/advocating that we test that premise. I honestly want to know if self help is a possibility. We are the smallest major airline outside of Avelo, we have almost negligible market share and we have been in existence long enough to matter. If self-help isn't allowed, then that makes not only our but EVERY pilot's options clear.
I have been very vocal/advocating that we test that premise. I honestly want to know if self help is a possibility. We are the smallest major airline outside of Avelo, we have almost negligible market share and we have been in existence long enough to matter. If self-help isn't allowed, then that makes not only our but EVERY pilot's options clear.
The only thing we can do is move forward which means ta as many sections as possible until there’s a window that allows for a proffer of arbitration. Unfortunately that process is on hold now.
05-04-2026 | 05:29 PM
#2664
On Reserve
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 125
Likes: 13
From: TBD
After 3 years with little progress and inflation catching up from behind, we might need to think about an alternate approach. Get a 25% raise or whatever we can get out of the company immediately. For each $100 million dollars of profit at year end, our rates would snap up $5/hr, but would not exceed average legacy narrow body rates.
The numbers would need to be tweaked, but general idea is everyone needs to work together for the company to be profitable. If Frontier doesn’t start making money soon, all this effort and churn on negotiating might not pay off in the end. Although it has many risks, the rewards with contracts based on expected returns can be very rewarding.
Another area we could push is per diem. The company avoids 8% social security/medicare and 401K match. As employees, we avoid the same 8% and also income taxes, so money comes straight to your paycheck. I think $3.50/hr would meet IRS requirements since we go into some expensive cities, and maintenance mechanics are getting close to this amount in training already. I think this would be an easy win-win for both parties. At least you get $100 of beer money on a thirty hour layover.
The numbers would need to be tweaked, but general idea is everyone needs to work together for the company to be profitable. If Frontier doesn’t start making money soon, all this effort and churn on negotiating might not pay off in the end. Although it has many risks, the rewards with contracts based on expected returns can be very rewarding.
Another area we could push is per diem. The company avoids 8% social security/medicare and 401K match. As employees, we avoid the same 8% and also income taxes, so money comes straight to your paycheck. I think $3.50/hr would meet IRS requirements since we go into some expensive cities, and maintenance mechanics are getting close to this amount in training already. I think this would be an easy win-win for both parties. At least you get $100 of beer money on a thirty hour layover.
05-04-2026 | 06:43 PM
#2665
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,776
Likes: 63
After 3 years with little progress and inflation catching up from behind, we might need to think about an alternate approach. Get a 25% raise or whatever we can get out of the company immediately. For each $100 million dollars of profit at year end, our rates would snap up $5/hr, but would not exceed average legacy narrow body rates.
The numbers would need to be tweaked, but general idea is everyone needs to work together for the company to be profitable. If Frontier doesn’t start making money soon, all this effort and churn on negotiating might not pay off in the end. Although it has many risks, the rewards with contracts based on expected returns can be very rewarding.
Another area we could push is per diem. The company avoids 8% social security/medicare and 401K match. As employees, we avoid the same 8% and also income taxes, so money comes straight to your paycheck. I think $3.50/hr would meet IRS requirements since we go into some expensive cities, and maintenance mechanics are getting close to this amount in training already. I think this would be an easy win-win for both parties. At least you get $100 of beer money on a thirty hour layover.
The numbers would need to be tweaked, but general idea is everyone needs to work together for the company to be profitable. If Frontier doesn’t start making money soon, all this effort and churn on negotiating might not pay off in the end. Although it has many risks, the rewards with contracts based on expected returns can be very rewarding.
Another area we could push is per diem. The company avoids 8% social security/medicare and 401K match. As employees, we avoid the same 8% and also income taxes, so money comes straight to your paycheck. I think $3.50/hr would meet IRS requirements since we go into some expensive cities, and maintenance mechanics are getting close to this amount in training already. I think this would be an easy win-win for both parties. At least you get $100 of beer money on a thirty hour layover.
Here’s one example before our current negotiations. The company approached the union about making a res available prior to 3am. The union countered with we can do that. Make it voluntary and throw an hr or 2 credit at it. company wanted it for free which is why we don’t have it.
Last edited by fcoolaiddrinker; 05-04-2026 at 07:02 PM.
05-04-2026 | 07:10 PM
#2666
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,776
Likes: 63
After 3 years with little progress and inflation catching up from behind, we might need to think about an alternate approach. Get a 25% raise or whatever we can get out of the company immediately. For each $100 million dollars of profit at year end, our rates would snap up $5/hr, but would not exceed average legacy narrow body rates.
The numbers would need to be tweaked, but general idea is everyone needs to work together for the company to be profitable. If Frontier doesn’t start making money soon, all this effort and churn on negotiating might not pay off in the end. Although it has many risks, the rewards with contracts based on expected returns can be very rewarding.
Another area we could push is per diem. The company avoids 8% social security/medicare and 401K match. As employees, we avoid the same 8% and also income taxes, so money comes straight to your paycheck. I think $3.50/hr would meet IRS requirements since we go into some expensive cities, and maintenance mechanics are getting close to this amount in training already. I think this would be an easy win-win for both parties. At least you get $100 of beer money on a thirty hour layover.
The numbers would need to be tweaked, but general idea is everyone needs to work together for the company to be profitable. If Frontier doesn’t start making money soon, all this effort and churn on negotiating might not pay off in the end. Although it has many risks, the rewards with contracts based on expected returns can be very rewarding.
Another area we could push is per diem. The company avoids 8% social security/medicare and 401K match. As employees, we avoid the same 8% and also income taxes, so money comes straight to your paycheck. I think $3.50/hr would meet IRS requirements since we go into some expensive cities, and maintenance mechanics are getting close to this amount in training already. I think this would be an easy win-win for both parties. At least you get $100 of beer money on a thirty hour layover.
05-05-2026 | 03:33 AM
#2667
P/T Gear Slinger
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 886
Likes: 40
From: Airbus
This is completely correct - except for . . . time. Supposedly (believe it or not), the RLA allows for a provision that let's labor have the option of self-help. THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE ACE IN THE HOLE for all of labor. Now, if you don't believe that will ever be the case (as some do), then you're obviously beholding to your line of thinking above and, unfortunately, they system is broken and there really isn't hope outside of mgt good will.
Do you not think the recently sacked NC was not working the requirements for achieving Self Help?
Do you think the 165/169 burn it all down approach shortened or lengthened the time to achieving Self Help?
After you answer those questions, think about reality. The last Self Help was Comair in 2001. What do you think the odds are today in the current business and political environment of the NMB releasing a union from mediation AND the president not stepping in to stop a strike to protect "business interests"?
You can hope all you want that Self Help is going to give us the magical sword to hold over the necks of the company and force them to give us 'market rate' pay.
AIN'T HAPPENIN'.
WTF do you think the NC has been doing? JFC, there's a process. 165/169 just ****ing blew it up, and now we've got to start ALL OVER AGAIN.
So, based upon being Self Help Curious, you think blowing up the NC and the union is a good idea?
05-05-2026 | 04:03 AM
#2668
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,685
Likes: 170
…….After you answer those questions, think about reality. The last Self Help was Comair in 2001. What do you think the odds are today in the current business and political environment of the NMB releasing a union from mediation AND the president not stepping in to stop a strike to protect "business interests"?………….
Hasn't that been the case since 2001 when the last Self Help Unicorn was ever seen? I'll let you in on a secret, Self Help Unicorns are extinct, and if 165/169 leadership is trying to sell you one of those Unicorns, you've been duped.
05-05-2026 | 04:20 AM
#2670
P/T Gear Slinger
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 886
Likes: 40
From: Airbus
Polar struck in 2005 and Spirit in 2010, so Comair wasn’t the last to exercise self help. It’s rare and I’d agree that there would be an immediate PEB if a legacy tried to strike, but it is still a possibility for smaller companies like Frontier with a low market share since a strike would be far less disruptive.
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