exactly!!!

In my humble opinion, I think it’s necessary to understand what we are actually demanding by settling for nothing less than an industry standard contract. We aren’t demanding better pay, better QOL, etc. We are demanding Frontier become an industry standard airline, because that’s what is required to maintain an industry standard contract.

Shrsailplanes

You seem to be managing expectations. This whole exercise is about figuring How much money is on the table, and what is the best way to spread it around amongst the pilot group.
So back to the OP. In your mind What does the Next CBA look like? What do you think is Attainable? ( I assume you work here. Please tell me if I am wrong)

Yeah, so is every other business. Costs are always going to increase given enough time. Should F9 close the doors because fuel, etc has decreased their margins? Of course not! Labor is no different. Pay up!

I do work at Frontier.

If it’s just a straight contract negotiation, I think whenever it behooves Barry, and not a moment before, we will get a contract that is significantly less than industry standard in all respects voted in out of exhaustion and frustration.

To get industry standard, the union has to convince indigo (Barry) that an industry standard contract, which requires retooling the entire airline, will be more profitable than the sale / leaseback scheme. I think that is beyond the scope of what a union is responsible for.

It’s either that or find an entity that would be willing to buy Frontier and run it as an airline.

If you think the pilot contract we want is no different than the cost of fuel or a bleed valve then I think we live in two different worlds.

The contract you think we deserve does not simply require loosening of the purse strings.

I am a G4 lurker but couldn't resist. Ya'll are living in an echo chamber if you think "investing" in the product to compete with anybody other than NK and G4 and maybe the startups is delusional.

There is an airline that precisely fits the story you are telling and that is B6 and they haven't turned a profit since 2019. They offer a great product. fantastic imo for a LCC. But they have underperformed for over a decade. Only reason they are still around is they possess a huge portion of the most valuable airline real estate in the world (JFK slots).

You do know that NK is trying to do what you are saying F9 should do and it is failing miserably. It would take years to rebuild the F9 brand into a non-ULCC airline and unfortunately in this industry F9 doesn't have years to re-brand and let the flying public learn through word of mouth, social media, etc. the "new" frontier. We are in the same boat here at allegiant. No wifi, lots of delays, but the fewest cancellations in the industry. we are puttering along, we tried to differentiate ourselves with a billion dollar swamp hotel that we just sold for $200m. again, nobody is gonna associate allegiant with the ritz or four seasons and that's what our former president tried to do with a luxury resort in a florida swamp.

bottom line: forget about dreams that F9 will ever be something other than a ULCC. You don't want it to be anything different because to do a true re-brand and make it like the pre-bankruptcy F9 would require... a bankruptcy.

market rate adjustment.


it’s already proposed by the union and any contract without it is a no. JetBlue has it, Alaska has it. We will have it.

it pulls use up to market rate and then we negotiate for QOL items and additional pay if it can be managed each cycle after implementation. Snap up pay some call it.

you’re ignoring the success of Southwest Airlines. With their bags fly free model they had and an open cabin configuration with snacks people loved it. There are low cost models that work. Sounds like to me the failure point has been implementation. I do believe we can’t just have a product like legacy carriers and sell tickets like them. You need a product that is different to bring people in. But this ultra low cost model has failed the industry. We are a parasite in the industry by your own admission. We don’t deserve the same pay because our product isn’t good. So we should morally all quit and work at a regional until we are called to the golden four flight deck. How about we demand fair pay and let the company sort it out. We don’t manage an airline but your point of model change being an issue is also delusional. Markets evolve or the business fails. Go look what’s happening over at intel. As a business we need to evolve to be in line with customer expectations or we are without customers. Well if we’re gonna be without customers and end up like intel we may as well cash in on the pay we can achieve through collective bargaining before the inevitable end of the ULCC model. Since according to you businesses can’t change before they go bankrupt. Guess what maybe this admin allows for carriers to be acquired and then we win even bigger because frontier failed and Alaska/Hawaiian or some other real carrier picked up the company merged them into their ranks.


you’re a defeatist and you’re showing us the state of your own frustration and projecting it onto us. Best of luck over there.

Excellently stated

Where did i say anything about accepting less??? I am a realist. I think it is beyond absurd that your management is seeking a cost neutral contract: I was shocked to hear that from several friends there. I would say you are on your way to being released if that is true. You all deserve a huge raise like everybody else - including us at G4.

Where you can criticize me is that I don't think pilots at G4, NK, F9, etc are reasonable when we claim that we fly the same aircraft and therefore must be paid the same amount. It just ignores common sense and no mediator or gov't official takes it seriously, it is us just sitting in an echo chamber. We had multiple mediators at G4 tell our former NC in negotiations that saying "we fly the same aircraft and therefore must be paid the same" was not helpful to the process and just makes progress worse. So tell me, how does living in that echo chamber help us? It is no different than wishing away the RLA so we could strike whenever we wanted. Is the RLA unfair? of course it is but is the world we live in. IMO wishing that all 320 pilots were paid the same and the paint job and pax profile shouldn't matter is no different than wishing the RLA didn't make it so hard for us to have a job action. Again echo chamber.


Wall street analysts, gov't officials, legacy pilots, airline execs, flying public, etc. none of them believe that G4 or F9 are competitors or peers with the legacies. It is way easier to get hired at G4 then it is DL and the pay reflects that somewhat: supply and demand. Do I hate that this is how it works? Of course. But even during the greatest hiring spree of our generation G4 somehow was able to still fill those new hire classes. I was shocked and it sucked because it cost leverage in negotiations but that is the reality: people who cannot get hired at a legacy will apply at G4 (and presumably F9) and get hired which allows management to pay less for labor. If there were unlimited pilot positions at the legacies then G4 would be forced to pay more for their pilot labor but again, not how the real world works.

Should we paid similar amounts? of course. Between 5-10% at G4 is fair imo. I haven't slept in a hotel for work (besides training) since covid. Wouldn't trade that extra time with family, hobbies, etc. for an extra $20/hr and huge portion of G4 pilots feel the same. I'm sure several of you went to F9 and stayed for a reason (good bases, QOL, seniority, etc) and I doubt most of you would upend your life to start somewhere new because some guy in DTW is making 7.8% more than you are.