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Originally Posted by captnate702
(Post 3929386)
Where did i say anything about accepting less??? I am a realist. I think it is beyond absurd that your management is seeking a cost neutral contract: I was shocked to hear that from several friends there. I would say you are on your way to being released if that is true. You all deserve a huge raise like everybody else - including us at G4.
Where you can criticize me is that I don't think pilots at G4, NK, F9, etc are reasonable when we claim that we fly the same aircraft and therefore must be paid the same amount. It just ignores common sense and no mediator or gov't official takes it seriously, it is us just sitting in an echo chamber. We had multiple mediators at G4 tell our former NC in negotiations that saying "we fly the same aircraft and therefore must be paid the same" was not helpful to the process and just makes progress worse. So tell me, how does living in that echo chamber help us? It is no different than wishing away the RLA so we could strike whenever we wanted. Is the RLA unfair? of course it is but is the world we live in. IMO wishing that all 320 pilots were paid the same and the paint job and pax profile shouldn't matter is no different than wishing the RLA didn't make it so hard for us to have a job action. Again echo chamber. Wall street analysts, gov't officials, legacy pilots, airline execs, flying public, etc. none of them believe that G4 or F9 are competitors or peers with the legacies. It is way easier to get hired at G4 then it is DL and the pay reflects that somewhat: supply and demand. Do I hate that this is how it works? Of course. But even during the greatest hiring spree of our generation G4 somehow was able to still fill those new hire classes. I was shocked and it sucked because it cost leverage in negotiations but that is the reality: people who cannot get hired at a legacy will apply at G4 (and presumably F9) and get hired which allows management to pay less for labor. If there were unlimited pilot positions at the legacies then G4 would be forced to pay more for their pilot labor but again, not how the real world works. Should we paid similar amounts? of course. Between 5-10% at G4 is fair imo. I haven't slept in a hotel for work (besides training) since covid. Wouldn't trade that extra time with family, hobbies, etc. for an extra $20/hr and huge portion of G4 pilots feel the same. I'm sure several of you went to F9 and stayed for a reason (good bases, QOL, seniority, etc) and I doubt most of you would upend your life to start somewhere new because some guy in DTW is making 7.8% more than you are. And that is that EVERY business has to evolve. Every single one. From the lemonade stand of the 8 yr old in the front yard to Amazon. NO ONE can stand pat on their original idea and expect prolonged success. This is so widely well known that NOT doing it is actually an anomaly. So, yes, we are in an echo chamber if we assume that all of our owners' (that's F9, G4, NK and even JB) have absolutely no intention of doing anything different and are only short term profit seeking. Buy low and sell high, right? Is that what's happening? If F9, G4 and NK looking to be bought out? Perhaps, but i'll believe it when it happens (and the DoJ allows it). There is another possibility - perhaps ownership (and bondholders) just want to FOREGO making a product that competes (regardless of how long it takes) and slowly watch the business crumble (and lose value) until deletion. That could be profitable as long as the fire sale at the end is greater than the original investment (not always the case - esp for bondholders). Given that we as labor can never know that either way, our smartest response/action is the same. Labor would do ourselves the greatest favor and force management's hand sooner rather than later on the sink or evolve question. Regardless of which echo chamber case you mention, why would ANYONE who works here want to be paid less for 15 or 10 or even 2 years from now if the decision will be to either leave or get a new contract w/ a new company? So, as mentioned earlier by many others, the only logical solution as labor is to force the answer as soon as possible. FWIW, I would GLADLY welcome a sale of F9...which pretty much guarantees it won't happen. |
shrsailplanes and captnate702
I thank both of you for your candor. There is a bit of an echo chamber here. People here are a little heated so don't take anything said personal. There is nothing wrong with the ULCC model. Running a low overhead can be extremely profitable. f9's problem is one of poor execution. Our passenger experience is terrible. There is a big enough segment of the population who just want an inexpensive flight from point A to point B. They don't need Wifi, or inflight meals. Unfortunately our organization has tried to squeeze every single dime out of the our passengers with little regard for the future. Dragging our reputation into the gutter. I would expect the second a CBA in signed service to turn around quickly. Yes I believe it is a negotiating tactic. Somebody is more concerned with a lower labor cost then running profits in the short term. All F9 needs is Reliable service, a smooth boarding process, comfortable seats and perhaps a water service. We don't need to be United, but we do need to offer a square deal. Which we are not doing now. As Pilots we have no direct control over any of this. That said we do not need to facilitate running a garbage airline with low labor costs. Higher labor costs may force management to run a better airline ,or it could force them to run this ship aground. We just won't know until it happens. Pay rates for all pilots have gone up substantially. I encourage everyone reading this to go look over the Regional pay rates on this web site for context. I can only wonder what they will be five years from now. |
Originally Posted by BagMan
(Post 3929473)
There is nothing wrong with the ULCC model. Running a low overhead can be extremely profitable. f9's problem is one of poor execution. Our passenger experience is terrible. There is a big enough segment of the population who just want an inexpensive flight from point A to point B. They don't need Wifi, or inflight meals.
Wifi is so basic now, it's almost not even thought of as a perk. You can get wifi in just about every fast food place, dept store/mall and even some gas stations. It's ridiculous how prevalent it is. I've heard that wifi on planes rarely turns a profit (which I believe) but I can't imagine that it doesn't pay for itself. Just the same way EVERYONE pays for bags - it's either a la carte or its in the price of the ticket. As you mentioned, F9 is simply good customer service away from being very profitable. It would take a LOT to get that going (and change the reputation) but it isn't impossible. Wifi is a basic part of customer service. |
I wonder why an organization with so many other airlines is worried about a new CBA. Desperately saying they can only afford 250mil in new labor costs. The question “where is all the money we make going?”
So I put together a time line off of wiki, It's rough, I am sure some here can dig up better info. Still I found this interesting Quotes from Wiki 2004 Wizz Air Wizz Air Hungary was established in September 2003. The founder, József Váradi, was previously CEO of struggling Hungarian state-owned airline Malév Hungarian Airlines,[8][9] until he was removed from office by the Medgyessy government in 2003.[10] The lead investor is Indigo Partners (Indigo Currently owns ~9% of Wizz) 2010 Volaris July 2010,[8] it was announced that Televisa and Inbursa had sold their stake in Volaris leaving the ownership of Volaris as follows: TACA Airlines with Roberto and Maria Cristina Kriete (50%), Investment fund Discovery Americas (over 25%) and Indigo Partners: 2013 Frontier In October 2013, Republic Airways Holdings entered into an agreement with private equity firm Indigo Partners to sell Frontier Airlines for approximately $145 million 2017 JetSMART JetSMART, is a Chilean ultra low-cost carrier controlled by US investment fund Indigo Partners, which also controls low-cost carriers like Frontier Airlines JetSmart requested an air operator's certificate (AOC) on 26 January 2017, and received its authorization in June 2017 2018 Lynx Air In late 2018, the airline announced it had attracted investors in order to transition from chartered flights to scheduled operations, one of which included American private equity firm Indigo Partners, Ceased operations Feb 2024 2019 Norwegian Air Argentina On 4 December 2019, JetSmart acquired Norwegian Air Argentina and took over its operations, staff, and license with immediate effect, with plans to merge the airline with JetSmart Argentina Indigo Partners LLC have a plenty of cash when it comes to buying airlines. I don't think something in the industry standard CBA ballpark will put them in the poor house, It will make it harder for them to buy other Airlines. Unless they sell F9. This seems more likely to me as the airlines owned by Indigo do quite well as smaller airlines. The logistics of running a larger airline seem to a problem. I would also note that Lynx air and JetSMART investments were just before our current CBA. This was before my time at F9. Anybody around here then remember what management was saying about higher compensation then? |
Originally Posted by BagMan
(Post 3929492)
I wonder why an organization with so many other airlines is worried about a new CBA. Desperately saying they can only afford 250mil in new labor costs. The question “where is all the money we make going?”
So I put together a time line off of wiki, It's rough, I am sure some here can dig up better info. Still I found this interesting Quotes from Wiki 2004 Wizz Air Wizz Air Hungary was established in September 2003. The founder, József Váradi, was previously CEO of struggling Hungarian state-owned airline Malév Hungarian Airlines,[8][9] until he was removed from office by the Medgyessy government in 2003.[10] The lead investor is Indigo Partners (Indigo Currently owns ~9% of Wizz) 2010 Volaris July 2010,[8] it was announced that Televisa and Inbursa had sold their stake in Volaris leaving the ownership of Volaris as follows: TACA Airlines with Roberto and Maria Cristina Kriete (50%), Investment fund Discovery Americas (over 25%) and Indigo Partners: 2013 Frontier In October 2013, Republic Airways Holdings entered into an agreement with private equity firm Indigo Partners to sell Frontier Airlines for approximately $145 million 2017 JetSMART JetSMART, is a Chilean ultra low-cost carrier controlled by US investment fund Indigo Partners, which also controls low-cost carriers like Frontier Airlines JetSmart requested an air operator's certificate (AOC) on 26 January 2017, and received its authorization in June 2017 2018 Lynx Air In late 2018, the airline announced it had attracted investors in order to transition from chartered flights to scheduled operations, one of which included American private equity firm Indigo Partners, Ceased operations Feb 2024 2019 Norwegian Air Argentina On 4 December 2019, JetSmart acquired Norwegian Air Argentina and took over its operations, staff, and license with immediate effect, with plans to merge the airline with JetSmart Argentina Indigo Partners LLC have a plenty of cash when it comes to buying airlines. I don't think something in the industry standard CBA ballpark will put them in the poor house, It will make it harder for them to buy other Airlines. Unless they sell F9. This seems more likely to me as the airlines owned by Indigo do quite well as smaller airlines. The logistics of running a larger airline seem to a problem. I would also note that Lynx air and JetSMART investments were just before our current CBA. This was before my time at F9. Anybody around here then remember what management was saying about higher compensation then? |
FUPM........
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Originally Posted by Stayontarget
(Post 3929591)
Must be an east coast perk.
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Everything went up in price lately, i don't see why Frontier tickets have to stay the same
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Originally Posted by BagMan
(Post 3929473)
There is nothing wrong with the ULCC model. Running a low overhead can be extremely profitable.
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Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 3930406)
The ULCC model is dead; killed by the big 3's Basic Economy.
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