PurdueFlyer

The thing is you aren't choosing between months or years, the timeline for your extinction is the same regardless of what you do. Frontier's problems aren't cost related but revenue related. Your airline, network, and (lack of) frequency is what is preventing you from getting the higher yield passengers that make an airline profitable. You are left carrying the low yielding scraps from Southwest and United in a high oil market and its slowly killing you.

You are exactly like Virgin America, minus the deep pockets, and even they aren't doing too hot. Other small carriers like JetBlue and Alaska are succeeding because they have a bunch of partners who help feed their network. Spirit and Allegiant succeed because they offer something completely different from everybody else.

Frontier is in no man's land with out any partners and a tiny network. The sad fact of the matter is you guys are hosed.

Your $25 million in give backs could be instantly erased if competitors lower fares a few bucks on competing routes, oil climbs a few dollars, or you have some very bad weather, or other operational issue (grounding of a fleet temporarily).

These give backs won't do anything to save your company, its your management and their inability to generate decent revenue that will be your undoing.

FYI: I do not work for RAH

sizzlechest

They didn't ask for it but they seemed to enjoy a sizeable (relatively speaking) bonus last year.... which, coincidentally, was WAYYYYY smaller than what RAH guys had enjoyed the last few years.... YOU'RE welcome!!!

sizzlechest

And RAH can always cut guys loose if gas goes up according to prior LOAs that FAPA signed.... I'm still waiting for that gem to be abused somehow.....

FAULTPUSH

Once again, non-sequitur. YOU got a pay raise, and so THEY got a bigger profit-sharing check? If WE ask for more pay, RAH makes more money?

STR8NLVL

There are so many ways to nullify this "agreement" it isn't even funny. First, as has been mentioned, every mention of "good faith effort" in past CBA's with RAH have been summarily ignored. But, let's give the reverend the benefit of the doubt and assume he follows through with the loss of controlling interest by 2014. In a month or two we're all one group with one representation. What's to stop IBT from then negotiating a new joint CBA with sale or split language that allows ALL pilots to bid which cert they go with in a split even before the fence? The IMSL wording specifically says it doesn't override current or future CBA language. So then your fear of RAH senior pilots "stealing" your seats becomes a reality and F9 is sold and you're then bumped down to 145 CA after the forced sale you voted for!

And all this for 10-15M in savings. Do any of you REALLY believe that 10-15M makes the difference between bankruptcy and viability? If so I've got some beautiful oceanfront property for sale. This has NOTHING to do with helping the company remain viable and EVERYTHING to do with doing ANYTHING to nullify the results of the binding arbitration.

I see no gain for FAPA pilots, only loss. This only further sows the seeds of division between the groups and will probably result in more chess moves from the native RAH guys to counteract it's effects post-merge.

Nothing good will come from further lowering the bar, blinded by the desperate hope of stopping the IMSL from taking effect.

I wish you guys would vote no, but I have little hope that will happen. This will only throw more gas on the fire. I can't get out of this CF fast enough...

FAULTPUSH

Given IBT's record on negotiating with the company, I'm not too concerned in the immediate future.

You've never been through an airline bankruptcy, have you? The possibility of avoiding the IMSL isn't the main motivation, it's just a sweetener.

No, but I think that $190 million might.

STR8NLVL

You bring this up a lot, ignoring the fact that RAH is the reason. You can't make them come to the table. Before they needed a contract in place, they would only meet for a half day sporadically. Now all of a sudden they need stability for financing and they're willing to meet monthly and expedite the process. Just wait until BB wants to nullify your deal and keep his new baby and see how willing to come up with a JCBA they are.

I'd say you didn't read my entire post, but you quoted the relevant retort below...

But your deal isn't for $190M, by your own numbers it's for 10-15M. The difference between 185M and 190M will not save the airline. And if you buy that your willingness to bend over makes one iota of difference to the other "stakeholders," you're even more gullible than I first thought. The only thing that speaks to them is return on investment. If they think they must give concessions to avoid losing even more, they will, regardless of your $15M in damages to your wages and our negotiating power.

Out of one side of your mouth you criticize us for our contract and the time it's taking to get a better one, then out of the other you strike a concession deal that directly impedes our ability to do so. I've never felt more confident in my support of the IBT.

Bolo

"Out of one side of your mouth you criticize us for our contract and the time it's taking to get a better one, then out of the other you strike a concession deal that directly impedes our ability to do so. I've never felt more confident in my support of the IBT."

How is this impeding you from getting a deal done? You have been trying to get a new contract for over 4 years. It is all the F9 pilots fault now! Are we suppose to negotiate a contract for you as well? Honestly, and I am not kidding here, I think F9 could negotiate a contract a lot better then what you currently have and it certainly would not have taken 4+ years. And No concessions would not be a part of it for the FFD side.
Please come up with something better str8nlvl.

STR8NLVL

Really? You don't see that taking concessions while we're asking for improvements hurts our cause?!

Can you not fathom that a major impediment to our negotiations has been the fact that midstream in our negotiations the company bought another company, a branded op at that, changing the game entirely and causing negotiations to start over? Then, they bought another. During all this, they had no interest in negotiating and dragged their feet at every opportunity.

What exactly could the gods at FAPA have done any different? Yes you have a better contract than we. But it's an industry average contract negotiated with a MUCH more labor-friendly management team. I don't believe for a minute that FAPA could have done any better or faster, especially after seeing them give concessions willingly that achieve nothing but smaller retirements and less vacation for ALL employees at F9, and less bargaining power at IBT.

This deal hurts F9 pilots, the rest of F9 employees without their consent, and RAH pilots all at the same time. Seems like they aren't doing so hot of a job bargaining with RAH management right out of the gate.

FAULTPUSH

I thought the argument went that Beford DOESN'T want us together? I can't think of any good reason to do so. It just complicates a lot of things and adds a lot to training costs.


I never claimed that it was. Your statement (which I agree with) was that $10-$15 million wouldn't save the company; my argument was that $190 million would. Now you're saying we should gamble with our careers based on your recommendation.

One point we're just going to have to agree to disagree on is that the financial situation is dire. On the one hand, we have several large corporations who apparently agree and are giving millions of dollars in concessions as a confirmation of that, combined with an unrestricted cash balance that is precarious. On the other hand, we have posts on this board saying "no it isn't".

The Frontier pilots will, for the most part, vote based on the facts rather than opinions expressed in this forum.