laserman2431

Skippy. You are WRONG. The ruling was not based on the "separate websites." That was only one factor. To say it like that is dishonest. If you are interested in the truth, you can read the ruling at http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n009.pdf . A summary of the factors included:

[W]hether a combined schedule is published; how the carrier advertises its services; whether reservation systems are combined; whether tickets are issued on one carrier’s stock; if signs, logos and other publicly visible indicia have been changed to indicate only one carrier’s existence; whether personnel with public contact were held out as employees of one carrier; and whether the process of repainting planes and other equipment,
to eliminate indications of separate existence, has been progressed.

Other factors investigated by the Board seek to determine if the carriers have combined their operations from a managerial and labor relations perspective. Here, the Board investigates whether labor relations and personnel functions are handled by one carrier; whether there are a common management, common corporate officers and interlocking Boards of Directors; whether there is a combined workforce; and whether separate identities are maintained for corporate and other purposes.

Purpleanga

dude it's an alter ego.,, they had/have TSA pilots teaching indoc at Gojet. What more do you need???? they copied and pasted Gojet to TSA on everything, made separate websites, separate offices in the same FLOOR, not only the same building, and placed placards that say Gojet on them. The only thing that is different is the actual certificate of what they can fly. It might be a "legal" alterego but everyone knows there is no need to have a whole different airline other than to get around something. All they needed was a different certifcate for the AA scope, I don't think even Gojet pilots would disagree with that, especially since they know their paycheck is signed by the same guy that signs for TSA.

pause

....anf the TSA pilots could have had the flying but took a gamble with advice from ALPO and lost.

BTW...can you start a sentence without the "Dude" ?? Are you 17 ?

laserman2431

You are absolutely right. Your statement that it is a "'legal' alterego" is the important part. We are a society that follows the rule of law. The establishment of the "legal" alterego is a fait accompli.

My comment was directed toward the person who said something to the effect that the NMB decided they were separate carriers based on the fact that they have different websites. His comment was either based on a severe lack of information or a slight lack of integrity. IMHO

laserman2431

I think he has a commercial pilot certificate so he must be at least 18.

skippy

actually it's neither: it's quite the "joke" that the first sentence in the ruling is that they have seperate websites. Even in the ruling there are massive and predujudiced misconceptions--- you honeslty thing that a gojet scheduler doesnt have access to the same scheduling room as TSA? Now, substitute, MX, dispatch, crew payroll etc. GMAFB Oh wait they have seperate id badges, websites, different payscales---- i dont believe they have seperate insrurance companies or plans--- ahhh how it is intermingled..... Hey we lost i get it- we re never going to win- but to get a ruling when the first sentence is they have seperate websites and job opportunities etc is complete crap. You can believe what you read-- maybe you shoudl read it over again and find all the complete and ridiculous holes inthe ruling-- they pulled a major one over on the judge--- prob went like this:

judge: dude you guys are sooo a single carrier- look at all these similarities
TSA fat bastard: but we have sep---er---ate websites "wink, wink"
Judge: ooohhhhh, i get it thanks for the loophole ruling--- i'll just add some other obvious differences like ID's, leather jackets, and other general stuff like that. Don't forget to support my political agendas-- we're ahving a $500 a plate dinner next month.

you belive what you want, and i'll believe what i read and what i lived for 9 years there

SKIPPY

what's next all those elected union officials weren't wrongfully terminated?





Each Carrier has its own website which lists only its job openings, and each Carrier has its own employment applications and personnel forms. GoJet and TSA have separate terms and conditions of employment, different wage rates, and separate benefit plans. Further, the Carriers maintain separate seniority lists and employee rosters.
GoJet personnel recruit and interview applicants for GoJet positions; TSA personnel perform the same functions for TSA positions. Any work done by TSA or any other entity on GoJet’s behalf is temporary and done pursuant to a contractual arrangement. GoJet’s temporary outsourcing of some work functions is insufficient to support a single carrier finding. See Allegheny Airlines, Inc., et al., above, at 171 (no single carrier finding even though one carrier performed customer service/ramp functions for the other carriers on a contractual basis).
GoJet’s and TSA’s operations are clearly separate. While the Carriers both lease space in the same office building, employees for each Carrier have issued ID badges which only allow them access to their respective offices. Each Carrier has its own payroll and operational bank accounts, its own aircraft and operating and flight manuals, and its own training arrangements. While the paint scheme for each aircraft is determined by the regional partner, GoJet and TSA fleet are identified accordingly, pursuant to DOT regulations, by stickers on each aircraft. Further, all Pilots wear the "brass" of their employing Carrier, GoJet or TSA, when dressed in the standard uniform of their regional partner.

mooney

I guess in the eyes of the government, if I have a Facebook AND a myspace website, that makes me 2 separate people and I can collect double the unemployment bennies?? Since they are 2 separate websites of course.

laserman2431

I guess it's not really important but the first sentence of the ruling reads "This determination addresses applications filed by the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Airline Division (IBT) and the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) (“the Organizations” collectively)." You can check it out at http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n009.pdf . Not trying to argue here but just to clarify.

But, I definitely agree with you that what's done is done. I know from personal experience that moving on can be very difficult. Especially when you feel that a great injustice has been done. It's easy to say "just get over it and move on" but there is much more to it. There is a process that most people must go through. There are stages. I think letting out some anger in an acceptable manner is part of letting it go. Venting on a web forum is a much better way than strangling cats or hijacking a company plane and crashing it into the headquarters building ala FEDX ex-flight engineer, Auburn Calloway.

At some point, after the anger, comes the part where you say "this happened and I can't change it. I have the rest of my life to live now." That part can take a long time for some of us.

flyinaway411

its harder to get over it when its happening. not happened. they're still taking our jobs everyday. its even more evident now that they are trying to grow them and have shrunken us in half.

check out a GJ memo hangin on the wall in HQ if u ever get a chance. Most of them are from the President, Rick Leach. Wait, whats that? He's the TSA President too? How can that be?!

whatever you need to do to justify your existence at GJ is your business, but I believe it is the goal of most of us to make labor improvements in this industry. the pilots did not make TSH establish an alter-ego with a seperate pilot list. they did that all on their own. well, not all on their own. they couln't have done it with out you guys going there. just like they wouldn't be furloughing our pilots right now if they didn't have you guys going there. but thats ok...keep enabling

RJSAviator76

Anga, what I'm trying to do is point out the reality vs. a pipe dream. TSA is not on strike yet. Until they are, or until there is a concrete action taking place, i.e. ALPA recruitment ban or something similar, it's a pipe dream to think that you'll be able to change the long-standing mentality of a typical airline pilot, especially in the short order.

Secondly, please don't put words in my mouth. I don't hate GoJet "scum" any more than I hate Mesa "scum" or Trans States "scum." I don't hate anyone, even though I could argue using your logic that my career was harmed way more by my fellow ALPA brothers than yours was by GoJet...

I'm also not telling you that you just have to "sit back and watch it burn." I'm telling you that you've channeled all your energy against the wrong people, but for some reason you keep missing that point. I have merely pointed out to you that if you want to change things, you're doing the wrong thing - pilots will still go to GoJet, and especially considering the current economic/pilot hiring situation. In essence, you're barking up the wrong tree. What I've been trying to do, apparently in an indirect fashion, was to point you to the right direction - not wasting time bashing the pilots applying or working at GoJet. If you truly believe that it is the same company, then take notes, observe operations, pay strict attention to what's joint, and what's not, put all your findings into a petition and push ALPA to reignite the legal battle. That's where you could be extremely effective. Sitting here and calling people names, might make you feel better, but in the end, what have you done for your cause?

Finally, again, I don't have a problem with you trying to get a fair contract. Quite the contrary, I support you and truly hope you get it. However, for your own sakes, I hope you go about it the right way, not the wrong way. So far, clearly you've been going about it the wrong way.