Pilot Extremist Behavior & Ramifications
01-12-2021, 09:10 AM
#91
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,343
Originally Posted by trvsmrtn
I’m no lawyer, I just play one online, and that statute says that the “ occurrence results in significant bodily injury”. If I’m not mistaken, just participating in a criminal act where someone is hurt, makes that person liable. I equate it to felony manslaughter, where, for example if two guys commit armed burglary and the victim shoots and kills one of the burglars, the other burglar can be charged with felony manslaughter. This is also my familiarization of state law vs what I don’t know about federal law, so I’m just speculating.
Small subgroups who communicated and acted together as teams, that might be different but of course they have to prove it.
Look at all the riots last year, IIRC only the actual perps got charged when it came to violence against persons. They didn't try to extend that to other random rioters.
Originally Posted by trvsmrtn
Also, since there are videos of people outside beating a cop with crutches, flagpoles, and other stuff, they could consider anybody carrying anything inside as possessing a weapon.
Purpose built weapons are always weapons.
Other items *can* be weapons but only in context... that normally means you have to actually use a non-weapon as a weapon before it counts. Also possible in the context of taking non-weapons into a place or situation where their ONLY use is as weapons but that's a stretch... you could make a case that you had a reason to carry that bat into the bar because you were on your way home from a softball game, that would be OK as long as you didn't hit anyone with it. Tricky at best, and flags, crutches, umbrellas, folding chairs, water bottles are all obviously things you'd bring to a rally. Tire irons and baseball bats maybe not... but if you also had a glove and ball, you could always play a game on the front lawn. Even a legally displayed folding clip knife is a tool, not a weapon, unless and until used as a weapon... that's why people can carry them around in their 501 pockets.
Bottom line, there is not going to be any cart-blanche mass gestapo roundup and gulaging of 99% of the protestor/rioters. They're going to have to make specific cases against specific individuals, and the vast majority of those they do snag will fall under the lesser misdemeanor component of the law.
All that said, in this unusual circumstance it's possible DoJ might throw some stuff on the wall just for optics, even knowing full well it won't stick... that way they don't take the heat for inaction, and get to punt it over to the judiciary.
01-12-2021, 09:18 AM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2017
Posts: 242
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Yes that's all correct. But it will not apply to a large disorganized group some of whom committed violent crimes, some of whom were rioters, some of whom were trespassers, some of whom were protesters, some of whom were observers, and some of whom were walking by on their way to the minimart to buy milk. The vast majority of those folks didn't know each other from Adam or communicate or coordinate in any way. Reasonable doubt applies and prosecutors can't just cast a net over everybody who was in DC that day.
Small subgroups who communicated and acted together as teams, that might be different but of course they have to prove it.
Look at all the riots last year, IIRC only the actual perps got charged when it came to violence against persons. They didn't try to extend that to other random rioters.
"They" could "consider" that but "they" also know it would get thrown out of court in 90 seconds.
Purpose built weapons are always weapons.
Other items *can* be weapons but only in context... that normally means you have to actually use a non-weapon as a weapon before it counts. Also possible in the context of taking non-weapons into a place or situation where their ONLY use is as weapons but that's a stretch... you could make a case that you had a reason to carry that bat into the bar because you were on your way home from a softball game, that would be OK as long as you didn't hit anyone with it. Tricky at best, and flags, crutches, umbrellas, folding chairs, water bottles are all obviously things you'd bring to a rally. Tire irons and baseball bats maybe not... but if you also had a glove and ball, you could always play a game on the front lawn. Even a legally displayed folding clip knife is a tool, not a weapon, unless and until used as a weapon... that's why people can carry them around in their 501 pockets.
Bottom line, there is not going to be any cart-blanche mass gestapo roundup and gulaging of 99% of the protestor/rioters. They're going to have to make specific cases against specific individuals, and the vast majority of those they do snag will fall under the lesser misdemeanor component of the law.
All that said, in this unusual circumstance it's possible DoJ might throw some stuff on the wall just for optics, even knowing full well it won't stick... that way they don't take the heat for inaction, and get to punt it over to the judiciary.
Small subgroups who communicated and acted together as teams, that might be different but of course they have to prove it.
Look at all the riots last year, IIRC only the actual perps got charged when it came to violence against persons. They didn't try to extend that to other random rioters.
"They" could "consider" that but "they" also know it would get thrown out of court in 90 seconds.
Purpose built weapons are always weapons.
Other items *can* be weapons but only in context... that normally means you have to actually use a non-weapon as a weapon before it counts. Also possible in the context of taking non-weapons into a place or situation where their ONLY use is as weapons but that's a stretch... you could make a case that you had a reason to carry that bat into the bar because you were on your way home from a softball game, that would be OK as long as you didn't hit anyone with it. Tricky at best, and flags, crutches, umbrellas, folding chairs, water bottles are all obviously things you'd bring to a rally. Tire irons and baseball bats maybe not... but if you also had a glove and ball, you could always play a game on the front lawn. Even a legally displayed folding clip knife is a tool, not a weapon, unless and until used as a weapon... that's why people can carry them around in their 501 pockets.
Bottom line, there is not going to be any cart-blanche mass gestapo roundup and gulaging of 99% of the protestor/rioters. They're going to have to make specific cases against specific individuals, and the vast majority of those they do snag will fall under the lesser misdemeanor component of the law.
All that said, in this unusual circumstance it's possible DoJ might throw some stuff on the wall just for optics, even knowing full well it won't stick... that way they don't take the heat for inaction, and get to punt it over to the judiciary.
Good points. I think we have to wait until Garland is in office to find out.
Schumer is on TV right now calling for everyone who was inside the Capitol to be put on the no-fly list. I can imagine going through KCM with some of the guys I’ve flown with in the last few months and watching the blood drain from their faces when they find out they’re on the no-fly list.
01-12-2021, 09:29 AM
#93
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,343
Originally Posted by furloughfuntime
The violence was premeditated. It's strange how you continue to minimize the severity of the insurrection when you're not really all that familiar with the facts of the case.
I'm not opining on "severity" one way or another, I'm opining on how severe the *legal* consequences will be for those who participated.
We'll know soon enough but my bet is all the usual mundane criminal charges for those who directly did violent acts on persons, plus the federal trespass/interference charges for anyone who they can identify from video inside the building.
I'm not expecting any insurrection/sedition charges unless they can document some actual detailed planning/communication, and that means active participation in said planning/communication by those charged. Just receiving a tweet or text is probably not enough. Reasonable doubt will hold that most of those people were there for a rally and were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Planning/coordinating a rally/protest doesn't count as a crime, even if you don't like their politics.
Look at who they've charged so far... one dude who brought a truck full of bombs and weapons, that guy is in the chimchee for sure. But other than that it's a few people they ID'ed off social media images. That's the legal reality.
Also, don't use the term "insurrection" lightly. The real insurrections we've had in this country were both instigated and led by highly experienced and competent senior military officers from the old establishment. Those lasted years for years and permanently altered the course of the nation. That's the kind of insurrection you need to worry about.
Last edited by rickair7777; 01-12-2021 at 09:41 AM.
01-12-2021, 09:32 AM
#94
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,343
Originally Posted by trvsmrtn
Schumer is on TV right now calling for everyone who was inside the Capitol to be put on the no-fly list. I can imagine going through KCM with some of the guys I’ve flown with in the last few months and watching the blood drain from their faces when they find out they’re on the no-fly list.
THAT could actually happen with no due process at all.
01-12-2021, 11:50 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 519
It’s incredible to me the mental gymnastics people will go through today to justify the actions of extremists who may happen to slightly align with their chosen “side”. Saw it this summer with left leaning folks and the riots and now seeing it today with right leaning folks and the capitol invasion.
Guess what people, you don’t have to conform to that BS. You can be rightly disgusted by both and it still doesn’t define which side you are on. In fact that entire premise that was have “sides” is half the freaking problem anyway.
Guess what people, you don’t have to conform to that BS. You can be rightly disgusted by both and it still doesn’t define which side you are on. In fact that entire premise that was have “sides” is half the freaking problem anyway.
01-12-2021, 01:41 PM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2020
Posts: 237
Originally Posted by rickair7777
I'm not expecting any insurrection/sedition charges unless they can document some actual detailed planning/communication, and that means active participation in said planning/communication by those charged. Just receiving a tweet or text is probably not enough. Reasonable doubt will hold that most of those people were there for a rally and were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Planning/coordinating a rally/protest doesn't count as a crime, even if you don't like their politics.
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Also, don't use the term "insurrection" lightly. The real insurrections we've had in this country were both instigated and led by highly experienced and competent senior military officers from the old establishment. Those lasted years for years and permanently altered the course of the nation. That's the kind of insurrection you need to worry about.
At this point, it's more political to call it anything other than an insurrection than it is to call it what it was, an insurrection.
01-12-2021, 01:50 PM
#97
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,343
Originally Posted by furloughfuntime
I don't use the term lightly, and I don't think *****footing around what happened on the 6th is all that helpful. Even the Joint Chiefs released a statement calling it insurrection, and they do all they can to avoid appearing political. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, swims like a duck, well it's probably a duck. Just because you want to qualify it as "not a real insurrection" based on a personal set of criteria doesn't mean it wasn't a real insurrection.
At this point, it's more political to call it anything other than an insurrection than it is to call it what it was, an insurrection.
At this point, it's more political to call it anything other than an insurrection than it is to call it what it was, an insurrection.
01-12-2021, 01:54 PM
#98
Feeling blessed.
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: Was I finally in the right place at the right time?
Posts: 537
01-12-2021, 02:08 PM
#99
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,343
Fed plans on charging hundreds...
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/doj...-the-beginning
CJCS condems it all. Normally I'd prefer they just zip it about civil matters like this rather than risking leaning one way or another into controversy but he may have an ulterior motive... make it clear to any mil members that this sort of thing is no bueno, and also re-assure the public that the mil will not tolerate it's people getting involved in stuff like this.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN29H2WF
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/doj...-the-beginning
CJCS condems it all. Normally I'd prefer they just zip it about civil matters like this rather than risking leaning one way or another into controversy but he may have an ulterior motive... make it clear to any mil members that this sort of thing is no bueno, and also re-assure the public that the mil will not tolerate it's people getting involved in stuff like this.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN29H2WF
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