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Tool of the day

Old 06-28-2012, 10:49 AM
  #1781  
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The POINT is, he TOLD the controller that due to the winds, he was NOT GOINT TO ACCEPT rw 22, and if they gave him 22, he would declare an emergency and land on 31.

EWR's runways are also 4/22, so no help going there with the wind 300@35,

LGA? Well, maybe.

The larger point is; when a pilot declares an emergency, for what ever reason, the controller needs to shut the fark up, stop trying to give him vecors, and make him the number 1 priority.
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:52 AM
  #1782  
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Originally Posted by lolwut
I'm pretty sure the most prudent course of action is to divert well before you ever reach the "I have to declare an emergency in order to land" point. Then again, I don't know the whole story behind what happened...

You are an RJ F/O, and you are going to tell the Captain of a Heavy, coming into JFK after an ocean crossing, what's prudent? How much EXPERIENCE do you have in his world?

Good luck with that.

And no, you don't know the whole story, obviously.
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:01 AM
  #1783  
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Originally Posted by Timbo
You are an RJ F/O, and you are going to tell the Captain of a Heavy, coming into JFK after an ocean crossing, what's prudent? How much EXPERIENCE do you have in his world?

Good luck with that.

And no, you don't know the whole story, obviously.
AA 2 was a 767-200 coming from LAX.

After a review, those guys got time off without pay.

They were not on fire, they simply could not accept the runway as is- that is not an emergency situation no matter how you try to skew it.

Think about the multitude of other aircraft landing on 22- I'd be willing to bet a few of those were 767s and 757s as well... why did they not conduct themselves in a similar manner, or did AA 2 get fixated?
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:07 AM
  #1784  
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Originally Posted by Timbo
You are an RJ F/O, and you are going to tell the Captain of a Heavy, coming into JFK after an ocean crossing, what's prudent? How much EXPERIENCE do you have in his world?

Good luck with that.

And no, you don't know the whole story, obviously.
I don't see what pilot qualification has to do with the fact that it should go something like this:

1) Land.
2) If unable to land, hold.
3) If unable to hold, divert.
4) If unable to divert, declare emergency.

If holding and diverting weren't options, he was completely justified in declaring an emergency. But we.... both you and I.... weren't there. We don't know what lead up to that point. Though, if you're unable to do either of those, chances are you've already declared an emergency, or at least probably should've. If this guy had already stated min fuel or something along those lines, have at it.


But, declaring an emergency and vectoring yourself through some of the busiest airspace in the world, telling the controller to get everyone out of your way and ignoring his instructions... because you want a different runway? If nothing significant led up to it, thats TOTD material.


And for your response focusing on my background rather than what the AA pilot did, all I can say is....
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:23 AM
  #1785  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
AA 2 was a 767-200 coming from LAX.

After a review, those guys got time off without pay.

They were not on fire, they simply could not accept the runway as is- that is not an emergency situation no matter how you try to skew it.

Think about the multitude of other aircraft landing on 22- I'd be willing to bet a few of those were 767s and 757s as well... why did they not conduct themselves in a similar manner, or did AA 2 get fixated?
Maybe those other operators need to be 'looked at', if indeed they were landing on a runway with reported winds beyond their aircraft's published limitations. I think we are only hearing the very tail end of this conversation, as it appears the crew had already told the controller they would not be able to accept that runway...and they would declare an emergency if they were forced into it.

Sounds like the controller wanted to "Press to Test". So, who won that little battle of wills?

I'll support the pilot's actions over atc every time, especially when JFK is involved! I'm amazed I'm alone in this.

This brings up an interesting point though, how many of you would go ahead and land, in winds reported 'out of limits' just because all the guys in front of you were doing it too?

Remember what your mom said about that??

There's your TOTD's.
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:36 AM
  #1786  
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Originally Posted by Timbo
Maybe those other operators need to be 'looked at', if indeed they were landing on a runway with reported winds beyond their aircraft's published limitations. I think we are only hearing the very tail end of this conversation, as it appears the crew had already told the controller they would not be able to accept that runway...and they would declare an emergency if they were forced into it.

Sounds like the controller wanted to "Press to Test". So, who won that little battle of wills?

I'll support the pilot's actions over atc every time, especially when JFK is involved! I'm amazed I'm alone in this.

This brings up an interesting point though, how many of you would go ahead and land, in winds reported 'out of limits' just because all the guys in front of you were doing it too?

Remember what your mom said about that??

There's your TOTD's.
I would've done exactly as I stated in my previous post. Continued to the FAF, monitored the winds, and if above limits, gone around. Then I would've gotten vectored, held, etc while explaining in detail to the controller about the significance of needing the other runway. I'd then divert if I wasn't able to get it. This isn't hypothetical either, myself and every other airline pilot has gone through these exact types of situations before and nearly no one ends up declaring an emergency as a result.

Everyone is happy, safe, and no paperwork involved. AA 2's situation, if there was nothing else going on than the wind/runway issue, resulted in a significant decrease in safety for all airplanes involved, including AA 2. Other airplanes were forced to abandon approaches, change taxi routes involving runway crossings, etc because of his actions. How does he know that he isn't being given 31R because a runway inspection is in progress or theres a guy out there changing a centerline light? He sure wasn't listening to the controller.
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:42 AM
  #1787  
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lolwut, I agree with you. A diversion would have been prudent at that point. It seems AMR management agreed.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:50 PM
  #1788  
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Originally Posted by lolwut
I don't see what pilot qualification has to do with the fact that it should go something like this:

1) Land.
2) If unable to land, hold.
3) If unable to hold, divert.
4) If unable to divert, declare emergency.

If holding and diverting weren't options, he was completely justified in declaring an emergency. But we.... both you and I.... weren't there. We don't know what lead up to that point. Though, if you're unable to do either of those, chances are you've already declared an emergency, or at least probably should've. If this guy had already stated min fuel or something along those lines, have at it.


But, declaring an emergency and vectoring yourself through some of the busiest airspace in the world, telling the controller to get everyone out of your way and ignoring his instructions... because you want a different runway? If nothing significant led up to it, thats TOTD material.


And for your response focusing on my background rather than what the AA pilot did, all I can say is....
That picture 'meme' is hilarious.
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Old 06-28-2012, 04:20 PM
  #1789  
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
AA 2 was a 767-200 coming from LAX.

After a review, those guys got time off without pay.

They were not on fire, they simply could not accept the runway as is- that is not an emergency situation no matter how you try to skew it.

Think about the multitude of other aircraft landing on 22- I'd be willing to bet a few of those were 767s and 757s as well... why did they not conduct themselves in a similar manner, or did AA 2 get fixated?

You're ONLY an AIRBUS FO...and you're gonna tell Timbo the facts??? You don't have the guts!:roll eyes:

Tool of the day.....any pilot that ASSumes every RJ FO is 23 with 600 hours....
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Old 06-28-2012, 05:59 PM
  #1790  
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Originally Posted by Timbo
You are an RJ F/O, and you are going to tell the Captain of a Heavy, coming into JFK after an ocean crossing, what's prudent? How much EXPERIENCE do you have in his world?

Good luck with that.

And no, you don't know the whole story, obviously.
You don't know the whole story either just based off of a live atc recording. Low fuel on an airplane is low fuel whether you're in a 777 or a 172. The point he was trying to make is that you shouldn't let yourself get boxed into the emergency corner that easily. And since we don't know the whole story (or at least I don't) why did they accept vectors for 22r to begin with?

There's more than one way to get a message across. The pilot of aa2 didn't have much tact in doing so. It's one thing to be going in the Hudson and another to need a runway into the wind. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since a delta 777 pilot should know better than to **** into the wind on apc like you did above
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