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Affirmative action in the airlines?

Old 10-09-2006, 09:02 PM
  #11  
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As i see it there are issues with the way affirmative action is used, there are also issues with how things would be without it. Years ago two equally qualified individuals of different races would not have been seen as equally qualified in the majority of buisinesses. In order to "force" businesses to accept that everyone was equal preferential hiring was established, the unfortunate is that it is basically reverse descrimination, which only further divides the people. IF the affirmative action had not been initialized, i highly doubt that the work force would have become as diversified as it did so quickly.

Personally, i think it should be setup that the most qualified individual should get the job, always. But, that goes deeper than a racial issue to a social economic issue, the schools in poorer districts have to be improved, the college enviornment has to be made accesible (its pretty expensive as we all know), and the businesses have to be fair. Some say that as a business i should be able to hire whoever i want, and if i don't want any minorities, then i shouldn't have to hire them, if i didn't want any white men, then i shouldn't have to hire them either, etc. Well, that might be your right, but as history has stated time and time again, your rights don't mean much once they step on someone else's rights.

in a PERFECT world, people would be hired based solely on their qualifications, and in this perfect world affermative action would only ensure that these individuals are only hired based on their qualifications. But, I don't live in a perfect world, and as a result, have to deal with what works at the moment, or doesn't, and change things accordingly.

-PS
I'm one of the minorities in that class of 39, and the flight experience across the board is so wide (400-2000TT) that i don't think anyone in the class is any more or any less qualified than anyone else.
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:42 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by flynavyj View Post

In order to "force" businesses to accept that everyone was equal preferential hiring was established......

Let me get this straight. Everyone is equal so we are forcing you to hire one individual over another to make things equal. What a crock of BS!


Originally Posted by flynavyj View Post

Personally, i think it should be setup that the most qualified individual should get the job, always.
I couldn't agree more!


Originally Posted by flynavyj View Post

the college enviornment has to be made accesible (its pretty expensive as we all know)

College is expensive for everyone. It took years to pay off my student loans. Open a phone book and there are tens of thousands of colleges, community colleges and trade schools throughout this country. Effort is what is required, not excuses. I doubt that if anyone seriously wanted to go to school, he or she would be denied due to economic conditions. There are many social programs to address these situations as we all know. The truth is, it is easier for many to come up with excuses why they don't have the opportunity to go to college than it is to get their a$$ out of bed and go.


Originally Posted by flynavyj View Post

Some say that as a business i should be able to hire whoever i want, and if i don't want any minorities, then i shouldn't have to hire them, if i didn't want any white men, then i shouldn't have to hire them either, etc. Well, that might be your right, but as history has stated time and time again, your rights don't mean much once they step on someone else's rights.

Well no $hit. That's why it's called MY business. If I have a business that sells womens lingerie, should I be required to hire a male Mexican (or fill in the blank) construction worker to work there over an attractive female sales professional that understands the special needs and uniqueness of my product? What kind of logic is that? On the flip side, If I were building a road, I would probably pass on the lady and hire the construction worker, as is my prerogative. If you don't like the way I run my business, start your own f-ing business, as is your right. You have no guaranteed rights to work for me anymore than I have a guaranteed right to be a captain for British Airways.


Contrary to what you or others may choose to believe, I have no issues with any minority or gender in the workplace so long as they are competent to do the job. I get very annoyed though when bull$hit is spread about "rights" and who is owed what. Equal is equal and anything else is NOT equal. I have flown with several non-white and non-male first officers that have overcome almost insurmountable odds to get to a major airline job. They weren't handed anything and they didn't ask or expect it. It discredits their incredible drive, determination and accomplishment to suggest that minorities cannot achieve something because of some perceived lack of opportunity. If equal opportunity is the goal, then lets be equal in all respects!
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Old 10-10-2006, 07:07 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by flynavyj View Post
As i see it there are issues with the way affirmative action is used, there are also issues with how things would be without it. Years ago two equally qualified individuals of different races would not have been seen as equally qualified in the majority of buisinesses. In order to "force" businesses to accept that everyone was equal preferential hiring was established, the unfortunate is that it is basically reverse descrimination, which only further divides the people. IF the affirmative action had not been initialized, i highly doubt that the work force would have become as diversified as it did so quickly.

Personally, i think it should be setup that the most qualified individual should get the job, always. But, that goes deeper than a racial issue to a social economic issue, the schools in poorer districts have to be improved, the college enviornment has to be made accesible (its pretty expensive as we all know), and the businesses have to be fair. Some say that as a business i should be able to hire whoever i want, and if i don't want any minorities, then i shouldn't have to hire them, if i didn't want any white men, then i shouldn't have to hire them either, etc. Well, that might be your right, but as history has stated time and time again, your rights don't mean much once they step on someone else's rights.

in a PERFECT world, people would be hired based solely on their qualifications, and in this perfect world affermative action would only ensure that these individuals are only hired based on their qualifications. But, I don't live in a perfect world, and as a result, have to deal with what works at the moment, or doesn't, and change things accordingly.

-PS
I'm one of the minorities in that class of 39, and the flight experience across the board is so wide (400-2000TT) that i don't think anyone in the class is any more or any less qualified than anyone else.
Sorry, the low guy (girl, or non-white rather) in the class had 400 total and the high had 2000?
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Old 10-10-2006, 06:35 PM
  #14  
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That's correct on the times dojet, all across the board.


Calcapt, I actually do agree with what you've said. Often times, people will make excuses well before they step up to the plate to play ball, why? Because it's easier. I see no reason why a person doesn't graduate highschool in these days if they have no "extremely difficult circumstances" (to much put on them by parents aka....you watch brothers and sisters from the time you get home from school to the time you go to bed, make dinner, etc) not everyone's lot in life is as easy as the next guys, nor as hard, all relative. My girlfriend is in her first year of teaching and has noticed that about some of her students, they come from poor families (no excuse for not trying) but some students are not being given the time to do their homework, instead are required to do their parents housework. If a person was in that situation, the end result is that they're probably not going to be prepared for college, and even if they did get accepted to one, they wouldn't have the background to succeed...tough luck. Does that have anything to do w/ affirmative action? Nope.

So, should a person be admitted to college just to meet a quota? Nope, should a person get a job for the same reason? No again. Honestly, in the aviation workplace i don't believe that you see affirmative action all that much, honestly, you don't see it that much in many workplaces anymore. It's not as much "hire this many of this group, this many of this group" like it was in the past, and i believe that on average people get a fair shot at getting a job as long as their qualified.

I do know that my resume' doesn't say "minority-hire me" anywhere on it, and my name is as american as the next guy...so, if anyone on here's resume' is the same way, and you were still called for the interview, i highly doubt that affirmative action got you the position...they were already prepared to hire you.
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Old 10-11-2006, 11:51 AM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by flynavyj View Post
That's correct on the times dojet, all across the board.


Calcapt, I actually do agree with what you've said. Often times, people will make excuses well before they step up to the plate to play ball, why? Because it's easier. I see no reason why a person doesn't graduate highschool in these days if they have no "extremely difficult circumstances" (to much put on them by parents aka....you watch brothers and sisters from the time you get home from school to the time you go to bed, make dinner, etc) not everyone's lot in life is as easy as the next guys, nor as hard, all relative. My girlfriend is in her first year of teaching and has noticed that about some of her students, they come from poor families (no excuse for not trying) but some students are not being given the time to do their homework, instead are required to do their parents housework. If a person was in that situation, the end result is that they're probably not going to be prepared for college, and even if they did get accepted to one, they wouldn't have the background to succeed...tough luck. Does that have anything to do w/ affirmative action? Nope.

So, should a person be admitted to college just to meet a quota? Nope, should a person get a job for the same reason? No again. Honestly, in the aviation workplace i don't believe that you see affirmative action all that much, honestly, you don't see it that much in many workplaces anymore. It's not as much "hire this many of this group, this many of this group" like it was in the past, and i believe that on average people get a fair shot at getting a job as long as their qualified.

I do know that my resume' doesn't say "minority-hire me" anywhere on it, and my name is as american as the next guy...so, if anyone on here's resume' is the same way, and you were still called for the interview, i highly doubt that affirmative action got you the position...they were already prepared to hire you.
Fly,
How long have you been out of the Navy and searching for a civilian job? Only recently would be my guess. When I was at the commuters in the late 90's I saw countless females and minorities get hired during that wave of hiring with well below averages of experience. All the while white males that had 1000's of hours turbine pic, IOE intructor positions, and multiple type ratings not even get a call to interview (with no skeletons, I might add). You may not see so many of these underqualified people that I describe at a given airline nowadays because of the massive furloughs that followed but it happened. I saw it happen MANY times. I predict more of the same when the next wave of hiring hits. Affirmative Action is unfortunately alive and well in the aviation community.

Last edited by UPSAv8tr; 10-11-2006 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 10-11-2006, 01:20 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by Thedude View Post
But of those 5 non-white males. What was the level of experience? Was it equal to the others?
I'd say that they're in the upper half of the experience range of our class. I know they've all got more than me.
NavyJ hit it right on the head with his summation.
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Old 10-11-2006, 04:40 PM
  #17  
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Why get all upset over a non factor like Afirmitive Action? Regionals Are hiring at 600/100. A warm body that fills the right seat seems to be the only qualification. I don't know of anybody who can't find a job somewhere.
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Old 10-11-2006, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by robthree View Post
Why get all upset over a non factor like Afirmitive Action? Regionals Are hiring at 600/100. A warm body that fills the right seat seems to be the only qualification. I don't know of anybody who can't find a job somewhere.
I dont think most of of are getting upset by Afirm Action at the commuter level,since those jobs are pretty much dime a dozen and stepping stones at best. Its the actions at the majors that concern me the most, espcially since the airlines like to tout they only hire the best and most quailified.

And yes, I am one of the ones that knows several females that were hired at the majors ( in the late 90s) that still had wet ink on their ATP while their male counterparts had much, much more experience and never even got an interview.

Last edited by Thedude; 10-11-2006 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:19 PM
  #19  
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Affirmative action is racist. If we are to be a true egalitarean society, there is no white, black, brown blue etc...we are people.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:23 PM
  #20  
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agree w/ that hotmama, wonder how long it will be before everyone can be treated that way? and i mean EVERYONE.

Another note, i never thought the airlines hired who was most qualified (like many industries do) they typically hire who they like ... despite race, that's just another factor that apparently was (is) practiced.
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