N6724G

And if eryone saw life as you do maybe this would be a better place, but unfortunantly everybodty doesnt see it as you. I am black and wasnt reaised in the hood. My dad was in the military. I am a military brat. I am in the military myself but I see the kids growing up in the inner city. Maybe you denouced yourself and really dont know whats going on there. Maybe you havent been there in a while. SO maybe you really dont know whats going on but you listento others toget your opinions. Well, I know whats going on because I see it everyday. Inever said make excuses for anyone I am just saying expose differant things to people that may not be reDILY EXPOSED TO IT.

Southerncowboyz

As I forestated, this is a dead-end thread. Everybody has an example: this guy's dad is a wide body captain or that guy is driving a nice car or some GIRL is one-eighth Cherokee twice removed on her mother-in-laws side, or how many perceived minorities one might see in the crew room of United or UPS. Riiiiiiiggghhhht.

You can discard the names of the people who made these posts, but year after year the argument remains the same. In anything man-made there will be flaws. In anything man-made there will be deception and injustice. If all I have to endure is people complaining about this stuff on this board, I guess I'm doing fine. The numbers I stated in my earlier post weren't pulled out of thin air or fabricated. The numbers weren't 'Arthur Andersened' to meet the needs of this thread.

Dr. King stated on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial that he has, "A dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
While we have made huge strides as a nation, it's still a dream. I'm sure someone is going to argue Dr. King was anti-AA ... have at it.

You can show ten people a black piece of paper and all ten will say it's black. Show that same ten a grey piece of paper and somebody is going to say grey, silver, pewter, battleship grey, etc. Witness testimony is the least accurate in a court of law and as far as I'm concerned, it's all hearsay. The statistics don't lie nor does history.

You say that racism is not alive and well? Dude, you have not a clue. I work a job where I've been called the N word more times than Mark Furman used it at the O.J. trial. It doesn't phase me any more. You name the insult, I've been called it. You name the sterotype, It's been applied to me. All false sterotypes, of course, except one. On the same hand, I've been called an Uncle Tom for having white friends and that's just as bad. That's it for me on this dead end thread. Good day, gents.

Skygirl

Ok N6724G, I understand the need for affirmative action in some areas. I am a woman after all and we still have the "glass ceiling" of pay to reach. But truly it's a concept that is difficult to be fair. For example, I live in probably the most progressive area of the US, where minorities have made great progress, but then I also see the flip side, the reverse discrimination. For example, I see that checking "Asian" on your form gets you in the "minority" category, but then I see many Asians, who come to this country and work and study their arses off that do well. More power to them! Mixed feelings I have though, as a white female. I know they're working and studying their ass off, but I also know that they have that advantage (of checking the minority box, even though white people are the minority in CA) over me. Just across the bay from me at The University of California at Berkeley, the student population is predominantly Asian. Yes, their work ethic has probably rightfully placed them there, but now that white people are not the majority in CA, when do we get preferential treatment? These are hypothetical questions that question the fairness of affirmative action.

I KNOW that many government jobs as well as corporate positions are being held out for the so-called minorities in California. As a white female in California, I am a minority, but yet I do not qualify, even though I may often be the better qualified candidate for the position. I happen to be a fair-haired white female and am subjected to countless dumb blonde jokes, even though my co-workers do not consider me as such. I have a good sense of humor, and know that they are not directed at me personally, but if I made a joke about Asians or any other minority, it would not be tolerated and I would be promptly fired. I ask you, is it fair to joke or insult my ethnicity, yet I would be fired if I made a joke about anyone who has a different skin color?

I understand that California is a different beast than the rest of the US, but there is that factor of reverse discrimination that cannot be discounted. It really needs to swing a bit back to the best qualified candidate.

I am not totally against affirmative action, but I think that there are some flaws in the affirmative action concept that are divisive and harmful.

N6724G

Every system has its flaws. No system is perfect. I thought about it and her eis a good example of why I support Affirmative ACtion.

Think of it like a race. The gun goes off and one runner takes off. The other runner is held back. The first runner gets one lap done. then the second runner is let go. No matter how fast the second runner runs, he will never catch up with the first runner. Yes things have changed from the 60's but because of JIm Crowe laws ( DO you all even know what that is) and racism from that ear there was created a gap and a certain attitude in communities. No, everyone deosnt fall victim to it but a large majority do. Iused to teach in the projects . The kids could not read on the level they should have, Their parents couldnt help because THEY could not read and they could not read because their parents could not read. Its a cycle started 40 to 50 years ago and so its not easy to catch up. Again, some make it out of that situation but most dont. WHen I tell kids that I am a pilto m they honestly find it hard to belioeve. You folks will probably find it hard to belioeve cause you were never in this situation, but they truly have never seen or heard of a blackpilot escept inthe movies. SO to them its not a normal thing. Thats just the waythey grew up. Their reality is differant from your reality. SO they would never even think of pursuing careers as a pilot or engineer or doctor, they dont see these careers as being for them because they were rasied to believe they fit into a certain category.

Sad, yes. True, yes. Many of you probably cant een contemplate this but just like you, they cant even contempate cetain careers. Thats why we have organizationslike OBAP to dispell the myths. ALPA isnt doing it so somebody has to. Thats the reason for AA. Not to favor one culture over another but to give evryone a fair shake. The same works the other way. If a black owend company were only hiring black people AA would step in and make dure they hire other races. The reason you dont hear about that situation much is because there arent that many blac kowned companies around.

B757200ER

Good point, Skygirl. I agree.

And ANY foreign-born person who automatically goes ahead of a US-born citizen for a job is completely, 100% WRONG.

grandpa

i for one do agree affirmative action in a way is a form racism. Racism is quite alive to this day. Just by some of the comments i've read on this forum (various threads) I can see racism is alive in the airlines. It might not be a big conspiracy but on a personal level it sure exists. Maybe one day ignorance will be replaced by education and we will all co exist as equal human beings, but i dont see that happening anytime soon. Even in medicine, racism is a issue, as in many fields. It is interesting however, when we trully trace back our origins. Modern genetics has shown the entire human race is related, and we originated in Africa.

dojetdriver

Do you know why an airline like DAL has so few minority or black female pilots?

History lesson for you, DAL (like FedEx and UPS) had a MINIMUM requirement of 1000 hrs turbine PIC just apply for the job. From the late 90's till pre-9/11, all the legacy's are hiring. AA, UAL, USAir, CAL have none, if any turbine PIC requirment to get hired. DAL (and FedEx) remain firm and steadfast on their requirment for 1000 hrs turbine PIC, no exceptions. It is a competiive minium that says a candidate actaully has some experience being in command of a turbine powered aircraft, whether mil or civ.

Why should a minority have to grunt it out and build experience to be competitive at a reginal/corporate job for that coveted 1000 turbine PIC when one of the other Legacies will hire them without it?

BTW, if you now anything about this industry, it is not ALPA's job to make sure that minorites get hired. It never has been. You might want to educate yourself on what ALPA is about before you slam them for something they were never designed to do.

dojetdriver

Question for you on this point. If two people, one white male and the other a minority both apply for a job. Both have equal flight times, PIC, tt, ect. Both have the same amount of type ratings.

If the minority candidate had a terrible interview or flew a substandard sim ride and was not hired but the white male interviewed good and flew an adequate sim ride, who would you hire?

Did AA fail if they hire the white male because he demostrated he is a better candidate for the job?

If they choose to hire the minority because the EOC has to be satisfied, did AA work although they demonstrated substandard flying skills as well as a poor interview? Sounds like a freaking hand out to me.

N6724G

I wasnt slamming ALPA. I dont know anything about them. I was merely pointingout why an organization like OBAP exists. Many people fell like OBAP is a racist organization, but OBAP exists to promote aviationand airline careers in communities that would other wise not get any information I was just saying ALPA doesnt do that which is fine its not designed to as you said. But there is a group of airline pilots that do.

Also You lost me on your point about the reason why DAL only has one AfricanAmerican female pilot. I love DAL> Its my dream airline. SO I have no problem with them. In fact, DAL supports OBAP by every year giving us a 757 to fly to DC to tour the AIr and space museum. I thik thats awesome that they still do it considering the financial issues they are facing these days. They also pay for 16 year olds to take flying lessons for 15 hours. We soloed all ten this past summer.

N6724G

I think you guys really have a misunderstanding of what affirmative action is. Its NOT about hiring quotas. Its about making sure employers dont discriminate against anyone. Not just blacks. It includes whites, females, gays and everyone else. evryone thinks its centered around black people because thats probably wher eit started but today it covers everyone.