David Puddy

I bet the E2 will be cheaper because Embraer has more to lose.... Imagine 60 used E190 airframes on the market and also losing one of the original E190 customers... Embraer will be motivated and no doubt the E2 will be offered at a cheaper price per unit. But the E2 is also less capable than the CSeries (especially the CS300) and the interior is basically the same as found on the E190 - no real improvement or innovation. A lot of this depends upon how Robin and team view long term value of the aircraft type (vs a cheap, one-off purchase price) and the route optionality the aircraft type provides.

If JB feels the need to differentiate itself in a crowded low-cost market, the E190/E2 won’t help. You need to offer frequency and a non-cattle car interior to win higher margin travelers. Word is that Delta is looking at placing a big number of CS100s in the NY market due to the importance of business travelers who hate flying on RJs with uncomfortable seats and small overhead bins. With lower unit breakeven costs, Air Canada will also be using CS300s on flights to many key NE business markets.

BeatNavy

I agree mostly, but two points of interest. The overhead bins on the E2 can take bags wheels first. That’s a big change. Also, the lighting is all new LED and much better than the incandescent/fluorescent we currently have. Even our newest E190 looks dated on the inside due largely to the yellowish old lighting. The E2 interior, while basically the same layout to ours, will fix most of its issues. Most people like the e190 interior with respect to the wider seats than most and no middle seats, despite the initial small size upon boarding.

Also, New York is a leisure market for us, so the fact that Delta is putting C series there probably doesn’t matter to our targeted clientele. Furthermore, Delta NY biz travelers still fly on planes less comfortable than E190s, like CRJs (to include 200s) and 737s, and they ride on E175s, so I don’t think that is a reason RH would favor the C series over the E2.

I agree the c series is a better long term product for us, primarily because the 300 can serve a lot of our 320 markets better than the 320 (many have a consistent 65-75% load factor). CS300/500s could also replace a lot of the older 320s once they run out of life. The CS100s could do our current 100 seat flying, and the larger one(s) could bridge the gaps in our capacities, while offering a superior (imo) product with an assumed similar long term cost.

The701Express

JFK is a leisure market right now, but what will it be 10-20 years in the future?

Its leisure because that's where the high profit margins are and we need to fly them to maximize the utility of each slot. If/when the JFK slots go away gate space will be necessary to maintain market share and you could increase frequency to business markets while maintaining the leisure markets as well. Marty has said as much to investors at the past jp Morgan aviation presentations.

BOS is mostly business market oriented but the company wants a greater number of flights there too.

Management for all their shortcomings seems to realize jetblue must grow to compete and maintain relevance. Going forward I see two paths:

Take the 190/5E2 and largely maintain status quo

Or

Take the CSeries and disrupt ::shudder:: the industry

DavidPuddy, a big advantage the CSeries has with regard to cost compared to the E2 is that soon airbus can package the two planes together and will lower overall costs for the CSeries through more competitive supply chain pricing. The specific plane cost may be more than the E2, but combined with a total order cost with other airbuses thrown in you could see a lower cost overall.

That's the big reason watching airbus after the JV approval will be so fascinating to watch in this competition.

da42pilot

Another tube and wing isnt going to disrupt squat... unless it comes at the extreme price discount Delta paid.

It’s still going to be a tall order fixing the C-Series. The plane has similar operating economics to the E2 but lists for $14 million more. Airbus might just be that wild card, but we’ll see...

David Puddy

List price? Who pays list price? Nobody. You get what you negotiate as both Robin and Delta know well.

Sure, the E2 is an improvement vs the E190, but it has fewer seats than the CS300, less range and basically the same interior set-up as the E190 (although the bins are bigger). Robin is probably looking at it from both a CASM and a RASM standpoint. With more seats and a far more ergonimic interior, the CS300 is pretty compelling. But who knows? Robin is playing the game and using both manufacturers to lower the eventual bids...

Will be interesting to watch. Of course, Embraer will likely offer the E2 dirt cheap because Embraer has more to lose with fewer E2 orders and a growing list of airlines dumping their old E190s...

rvr1800

Yes you get what you negotiate but the starting point for those negotiations for the C-series is $14 million higher.

Say you’re looking to get a Tesla model S or a BMW 5-Series. One is $100,000 and one is $85,000. Would you make the argument that you have the same chance to get them at equal price if you order 100 of each? I would you say you’ll probably pay more for the Tesla regardless of how good of a negotiator you are.

The C-series is a good bit more expensive. I doubt we ever see one here.

David Puddy

Don’t forget that the CS300 is bigger than the E2. The E2 launch customer Widerøe is operating a one-class, 114 seat airplane with the E190-E2. You can put 140-150 seats in the CS300. No surprise that the so-called list price is a bit more.

Again, price is negotiable (volume orders can reduce pricing). At the end of the day, CASM, RASM (ability to earn more revenue per seat), route flexibility, passenger ergonomics and aircraft-delivery availability should be key decision factors. If price alone is the biggest factor, maybe the E2 will win because Embraer is desperate not to lose JB as a customer...

hilltopflyer

What's sad is the c series is exceeding expectations while the e2 is falling well short.

nuball5

I hear that notion a lot on the line.... that JetBlue will decide on the E2 because Embraer is desperate to keep JB and thus will sell the airplane for cheap. I think the same can be said for the C-Series in terms of desperation. Airbus I think took a risk in buying 50.1% of the C-Series product. They have Delta on the order books, which is great for them. I think Airbus still need another US Airline to make an order to keep that momentum going though and make their investment in C-Series worth it.

David Puddy

Keep in mind, Air Canada will be a CS300 customer and they are excited about the airplane:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/air-canadas-cs300s-could-enable-broad-network-chang-434067/

As far as I have read, beyond JB, Spirit is looking at the CSeries/E2, AeroMexico is looking at the CSeries/E2, United is looking at the CSeries/E2 (although UAL likely won’t get the scope relief it is seeking to expand E175 use) and several European carriers are ordering or evaluating the CSeries (“mystery” European airline has apparently already ordered/optioned 61 CSeries) after the CSeries start-up success at SWISS and AirBaltic. The potential for joint Airbus-CSeries deals will also expand big time after the collaboration is approved in the next few months...