1st/2nd year practical issues
05-05-2018 | 05:03 AM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,236
Likes: 0
Like many others, in a less favorable position, I'm trying to get factual, unemotional information, so that I can make a decision about joining the company.
Since my recent post above, there have been six replies, only one of which, provided a useful piece of information - crew don't get crew meals - that's a big cost, and a big QOL issue - is that clear cut, or do you get access to meals on the airplane (not a great option, if available, but better than nothing).
If someone reading the thread can provide factual/practical information, rather than opinion (which is thoroughly documented in many other threads), that would be most welcome.
To say that it is half or a quarter of what you should, or otherwise make, is not helpful - what does it even mean, what's your benchmark, and this thread isn't about that. You documented on another thread, how much is your family's combined income - over six times the average income of a first year pilot. Can you please either provide the information, which some of us need, or channel your frustrations to the many other threads available.
The question was pretty basic, and one person in particular gave the most helpful piece of information I have yet seen (though a big thanks to others who tried to give perspective) - no emotion, no opinion, and totally informative.
I, and others have read about how bad things are - medical plan has often been touted. Can someone, please, illustrate that with an average cost of premium, cost of a doctor visit, something practical - I realize that people may opt for different plans - but something that we can hang our hat on, as we try to figure out what kind of financial situation we are going to find ourselves in.
In a nutshell. When you got your $40K odd the first year, and after you'd taken care of the basic obligations, both governmental and family, what were you left with. If you could stretch that to year 2 or 3, that would even be better.
Thanks
Since my recent post above, there have been six replies, only one of which, provided a useful piece of information - crew don't get crew meals - that's a big cost, and a big QOL issue - is that clear cut, or do you get access to meals on the airplane (not a great option, if available, but better than nothing).
If someone reading the thread can provide factual/practical information, rather than opinion (which is thoroughly documented in many other threads), that would be most welcome.
To say that it is half or a quarter of what you should, or otherwise make, is not helpful - what does it even mean, what's your benchmark, and this thread isn't about that. You documented on another thread, how much is your family's combined income - over six times the average income of a first year pilot. Can you please either provide the information, which some of us need, or channel your frustrations to the many other threads available.
The question was pretty basic, and one person in particular gave the most helpful piece of information I have yet seen (though a big thanks to others who tried to give perspective) - no emotion, no opinion, and totally informative.
I, and others have read about how bad things are - medical plan has often been touted. Can someone, please, illustrate that with an average cost of premium, cost of a doctor visit, something practical - I realize that people may opt for different plans - but something that we can hang our hat on, as we try to figure out what kind of financial situation we are going to find ourselves in.
In a nutshell. When you got your $40K odd the first year, and after you'd taken care of the basic obligations, both governmental and family, what were you left with. If you could stretch that to year 2 or 3, that would even be better.
Thanks
http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/je...Comparison.pdf
05-05-2018 | 05:44 AM
#102
Banned
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,445
Likes: 0
Well you did ask what were some reasons for the low morale. So you opened it up to another thread pointing out how far behind we are. Here is a link to our contract comparison guide that has all the medical insurance information you were asking. I’m not on our insurance so I can’t help with those questions but this guide is very thorough.
http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/je...Comparison.pdf
http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/je...Comparison.pdf
30% or so of our flights are redeyes, and as a junior guy with little movement, guess who will be flying them for at least 2 years?
Welcome to jetblew. Hope you came ready to fight.
05-05-2018 | 05:52 AM
#103
Thread Starter
On Reserve
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Fair point, I just hoped for something anecdotal, rather than the 'they all suck' type of flippant remark.
Morale can go up and down for a number of reasons. So you look at the constants, and usually what is left generally becomes the cause of your lower morale.
As pay and benefits have remained fairly constant, then some other issues seem to be to blame.
Look back a few years, and the sentiment was very different. Since then, your competitors have rewarded their pilots, while you guys are left hanging.
I've read most of the threads, so would you see it as a change in leadership style (?), change to policies, or new management personnel.
The post on a different thread, where the higher management allegedly ignored the pilots, while engaging with other employees at BOS - that was a good example
'RVR' - great information. Thank you
Thanks 'POG', that sheds some light.
Morale can go up and down for a number of reasons. So you look at the constants, and usually what is left generally becomes the cause of your lower morale.
As pay and benefits have remained fairly constant, then some other issues seem to be to blame.
Look back a few years, and the sentiment was very different. Since then, your competitors have rewarded their pilots, while you guys are left hanging.
I've read most of the threads, so would you see it as a change in leadership style (?), change to policies, or new management personnel.
The post on a different thread, where the higher management allegedly ignored the pilots, while engaging with other employees at BOS - that was a good example
'RVR' - great information. Thank you
Thanks 'POG', that sheds some light.
Last edited by 654G; 05-05-2018 at 06:20 AM.
05-05-2018 | 06:07 AM
#104
Banned
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,445
Likes: 0
Fair point, I just hoped for something anecdotal, rather than the 'they all suck' type of flippant remark, which really doesn't have any substance.
Morale can go up and down for a number of reasons. So you look at the constants, and usually what is left generally becomes the cause of your lower morale.
As pay and benefits have remained fairly constant, then some other issues seem to be to blame.
Look back a few years, and the sentiment was very different. Since then, your competitors have rewarded their pilots, while you guys are left hanging.
I've read most of the threads, so would you see it as a change in leadership style (?), change to policies, or new management personnel.
The post on a different thread, where the higher management allegedly ignored the pilots, while engaging with other employees at BOS - by any standard, not good leadership
Thanks 'POG', that sheds some light. So does that junior guy end up with 10 days off per month (potentially) - I saw that reserves have a minimum of 12 days off, but I didn't see anything about line holders
Morale can go up and down for a number of reasons. So you look at the constants, and usually what is left generally becomes the cause of your lower morale.
As pay and benefits have remained fairly constant, then some other issues seem to be to blame.
Look back a few years, and the sentiment was very different. Since then, your competitors have rewarded their pilots, while you guys are left hanging.
I've read most of the threads, so would you see it as a change in leadership style (?), change to policies, or new management personnel.
The post on a different thread, where the higher management allegedly ignored the pilots, while engaging with other employees at BOS - by any standard, not good leadership
Thanks 'POG', that sheds some light. So does that junior guy end up with 10 days off per month (potentially) - I saw that reserves have a minimum of 12 days off, but I didn't see anything about line holders
30 hours at the Detroit Airport Hotel! Includes a beautifull view of the airport parking lot!
Everything, and I mean every little thing about this place sucks relative to our peers. From hotels, to layovers to schedules, to movement, to pay. Every aspect.
That is all you need to know.
05-05-2018 | 08:04 AM
#105
Banned
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Likes: 0
Fair point, I just hoped for something anecdotal, rather than the 'they all suck' type of flippant remark.
Morale can go up and down for a number of reasons. So you look at the constants, and usually what is left generally becomes the cause of your lower morale.
As pay and benefits have remained fairly constant, then some other issues seem to be to blame.
Look back a few years, and the sentiment was very different. Since then, your competitors have rewarded their pilots, while you guys are left hanging.
I've read most of the threads, so would you see it as a change in leadership style (?), change to policies, or new management personnel.
The post on a different thread, where the higher management allegedly ignored the pilots, while engaging with other employees at BOS - that was a good example
'RVR' - great information. Thank you
Thanks 'POG', that sheds some light.
Morale can go up and down for a number of reasons. So you look at the constants, and usually what is left generally becomes the cause of your lower morale.
As pay and benefits have remained fairly constant, then some other issues seem to be to blame.
Look back a few years, and the sentiment was very different. Since then, your competitors have rewarded their pilots, while you guys are left hanging.
I've read most of the threads, so would you see it as a change in leadership style (?), change to policies, or new management personnel.
The post on a different thread, where the higher management allegedly ignored the pilots, while engaging with other employees at BOS - that was a good example
'RVR' - great information. Thank you
Thanks 'POG', that sheds some light.
BJ spends inordinate amounts of time and $$$ to paint themselves as a hip/trendy/customer caring culture but it's nothing more than Management School 101 stuff used to pacify your employees. The truth is that they are ruthless with their "discipline". I know about 10 people (half Captains, half other workers like gate agents, FA's) who have been either suspended, pay suspended, or otherwise got something in their file. Everything BJ does revolves around using the legal system (e.g. policies) against you. They have policy books (e.g. FOM, FSM, Bluebook) but the problem is that they can rewrite it or interpret it however they want. Just read my posts about the "dependability policy". Even if you follow their policies, if they want to destroy you, they can and they will. They will dig through trash to find dirt on you or monitor your internet activity. Obviously there are many examples of bad employees, but nevertheless they drag in good people too. You will be walking on eggshells all the time dealing with other people at this company, particularly non-pilots. My best advice is that if you ever detect any leading questions, any setup of conflict from an FA, gate agent, etc., just walk away. The biggest trap is engaging people because then they can lie intentionally or unintentionally. You are then left to prove your innocence against someone for whom it costs nothing to make an accusation. For many FAs (not all), for example, this is a temp job or something they can just jump away from at any time. For you, it's a career. So you're dealing with people who may resent you just because you're a pilot and you get paid more. Obviously I can't write about any specific cases here because of company retribution to several people, but if you ask around in person, you'll find out for sure. There are a few articles on line written by third parties such as the one where a flight attendant got fired for using the jetbridge phone to call operations.
If they dropped the whole humanity, culture, caring, B.S., at least they would be honest. They ought to just change their slogan to "profit at any cost" or "you don't matter". At least it's truthful as a corporation. I can't expect a typical poorly ran corporation to be any better than that. BJ claims they are, but they are not. I particularly detest when these MBA flunkies use the word "family". Well, this "family" wouldn't hesitate to burn you alive if you are a liability to them. If you expect this place to live up to its propaganda, you will hate it. If you understand that it's a job, they are not your family or friends, then there are no false expectations. You will be much happier provided you always watch your back. 99.999% of the pilots here are wonderful (even the willfully ignorant apologists) so they are not going to cause you issues in the cockpit. Just watch out with calling Crew Services, calling in fatigued, being late, missing commutes, talking to people, making creative cabin announcements, waiting to update your iPad, doing FLICA trades inflight, etc. Most people don't live in fear for their job BUT you have no legal protection at this company. It is essentially "at will" with a facade of having work rules. If you become a liability to them, expect them to launch nukes at you without remorse. They'll just get some other low rent pilot to hire.
I hope you don't make any mistakes at this company because they will hang you. Your turn apologists and chief pilots...
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
05-05-2018 | 08:27 AM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,274
Likes: 55
From: 190 captain and “Pro-pilot”
One of the biggest morale killers is that they market themselves as another day at the Brady Bunch home but in reality it's more like being having your parents stealing from your piggy bank while you're in the hospital to pay off their drug habits.
BJ spends inordinate amounts of time and $$$ to paint themselves as a hip/trendy/customer caring culture but it's nothing more than Management School 101 stuff used to pacify your employees. The truth is that they are ruthless with their "discipline". I know about 10 people (half Captains, half other workers like gate agents, FA's) who have been either suspended, pay suspended, or otherwise got something in their file. Everything BJ does revolves around using the legal system (e.g. policies) against you. They have policy books (e.g. FOM, FSM, Bluebook) but the problem is that they can rewrite it or interpret it however they want. Just read my posts about the "dependability policy". Even if you follow their policies, if they want to destroy you, they can and they will. They will dig through trash to find dirt on you or monitor your internet activity. Obviously there are many examples of bad employees, but nevertheless they drag in good people too. You will be walking on eggshells all the time dealing with other people at this company, particularly non-pilots. My best advice is that if you ever detect any leading questions, any setup of conflict from an FA, gate agent, etc., just walk away. The biggest trap is engaging people because then they can lie intentionally or unintentionally. You are then left to prove your innocence against someone for whom it costs nothing to make an accusation. For many FAs (not all), for example, this is a temp job or something they can just jump away from at any time. For you, it's a career. So you're dealing with people who may resent you just because you're a pilot and you get paid more. Obviously I can't write about any specific cases here because of company retribution to several people, but if you ask around in person, you'll find out for sure. There are a few articles on line written by third parties such as the one where a flight attendant got fired for using the jetbridge phone to call operations.
If they dropped the whole humanity, culture, caring, B.S., at least they would be honest. They ought to just change their slogan to "profit at any cost" or "you don't matter". At least it's truthful as a corporation. I can't expect a typical poorly ran corporation to be any better than that. BJ claims they are, but they are not. I particularly detest when these MBA flunkies use the word "family". Well, this "family" wouldn't hesitate to burn you alive if you are a liability to them. If you expect this place to live up to its propaganda, you will hate it. If you understand that it's a job, they are not your family or friends, then there are no false expectations. You will be much happier provided you always watch your back. 99.999% of the pilots here are wonderful (even the willfully ignorant apologists) so they are not going to cause you issues in the cockpit. Just watch out with calling Crew Services, calling in fatigued, being late, missing commutes, talking to people, making creative cabin announcements, waiting to update your iPad, doing FLICA trades inflight, etc. Most people don't live in fear for their job BUT you have no legal protection at this company. It is essentially "at will" with a facade of having work rules. If you become a liability to them, expect them to launch nukes at you without remorse. They'll just get some other low rent pilot to hire.
I hope you don't make any mistakes at this company because they will hang you. Your turn apologists and chief pilots...
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
BJ spends inordinate amounts of time and $$$ to paint themselves as a hip/trendy/customer caring culture but it's nothing more than Management School 101 stuff used to pacify your employees. The truth is that they are ruthless with their "discipline". I know about 10 people (half Captains, half other workers like gate agents, FA's) who have been either suspended, pay suspended, or otherwise got something in their file. Everything BJ does revolves around using the legal system (e.g. policies) against you. They have policy books (e.g. FOM, FSM, Bluebook) but the problem is that they can rewrite it or interpret it however they want. Just read my posts about the "dependability policy". Even if you follow their policies, if they want to destroy you, they can and they will. They will dig through trash to find dirt on you or monitor your internet activity. Obviously there are many examples of bad employees, but nevertheless they drag in good people too. You will be walking on eggshells all the time dealing with other people at this company, particularly non-pilots. My best advice is that if you ever detect any leading questions, any setup of conflict from an FA, gate agent, etc., just walk away. The biggest trap is engaging people because then they can lie intentionally or unintentionally. You are then left to prove your innocence against someone for whom it costs nothing to make an accusation. For many FAs (not all), for example, this is a temp job or something they can just jump away from at any time. For you, it's a career. So you're dealing with people who may resent you just because you're a pilot and you get paid more. Obviously I can't write about any specific cases here because of company retribution to several people, but if you ask around in person, you'll find out for sure. There are a few articles on line written by third parties such as the one where a flight attendant got fired for using the jetbridge phone to call operations.
If they dropped the whole humanity, culture, caring, B.S., at least they would be honest. They ought to just change their slogan to "profit at any cost" or "you don't matter". At least it's truthful as a corporation. I can't expect a typical poorly ran corporation to be any better than that. BJ claims they are, but they are not. I particularly detest when these MBA flunkies use the word "family". Well, this "family" wouldn't hesitate to burn you alive if you are a liability to them. If you expect this place to live up to its propaganda, you will hate it. If you understand that it's a job, they are not your family or friends, then there are no false expectations. You will be much happier provided you always watch your back. 99.999% of the pilots here are wonderful (even the willfully ignorant apologists) so they are not going to cause you issues in the cockpit. Just watch out with calling Crew Services, calling in fatigued, being late, missing commutes, talking to people, making creative cabin announcements, waiting to update your iPad, doing FLICA trades inflight, etc. Most people don't live in fear for their job BUT you have no legal protection at this company. It is essentially "at will" with a facade of having work rules. If you become a liability to them, expect them to launch nukes at you without remorse. They'll just get some other low rent pilot to hire.
I hope you don't make any mistakes at this company because they will hang you. Your turn apologists and chief pilots...
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
I love that last line.
Define the person and discredit them before they can even type or if they do. Well done.
05-05-2018 | 08:48 AM
#107
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,935
Likes: 0
From: Airbus Capt
I dont believe line holders have minimum days off except the FAR requirements. I could be wrong about that. I have seen my initial schedule come in with 21 days at work, with 4-5 trips including 23-30 hour layovers that I really didn't get paid for. Those are days off right?
30 hours at the Detroit Airport Hotel! Includes a beautifull view of the airport parking lot!
Everything, and I mean every little thing about this place sucks relative to our peers. From hotels, to layovers to schedules, to movement, to pay. Every aspect.
That is all you need to know.
30 hours at the Detroit Airport Hotel! Includes a beautifull view of the airport parking lot!
Everything, and I mean every little thing about this place sucks relative to our peers. From hotels, to layovers to schedules, to movement, to pay. Every aspect.
That is all you need to know.
Nothing more to know. If you want the worst of the worst, welcome aboard.
05-05-2018 | 10:04 AM
#109
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 332
Likes: 0
If we go to Europe are guys going to complain about flying to Europe in the middle of the night too?
05-05-2018 | 11:04 AM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,206
Likes: 0
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
