We have a pilot attrition problem
04-26-2022, 11:00 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 978
Originally Posted by IWalkJun12
something you and I agree on. Maybe there is hope after all
04-26-2022, 11:01 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Posts: 429
From the NK side, I知 afraid the buying of us is to right size/staff B6. I知 afraid planes will be parked or returned and stagnation will occur for awhile. All the airframes we both have in the air today will not be in the air a month after a merger is complete. Only saving grace is future orders, but we all know they only count when the jet is on the ramp.
04-26-2022, 11:04 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: MD-88 FO
Posts: 1,558
Originally Posted by IWalkJun12
From the NK side, I知 afraid the buying of us is to right size/staff B6. I知 afraid planes will be parked or returned and stagnation will occur for awhile. All the airframes we both have in the air today will not be in the air a month after a merger is complete. Only saving grace is future orders, but we all know they only count when the jet is on the ramp.
04-26-2022, 11:05 AM
#24
SDQ Base Chief
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 320 CA
Posts: 5,583
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
Yep, completely out of touch, tone deaf.
From the executives of the U.S.S. BJ "We have identified a massive hole in the hull of our great ship. Very large quantities of water are as we speak gushing into the hull. We have all the knowledge and tools to make a proper repair of the hull and stop the water from coming in. However, upon high level discussions with your "leadership" team, we have decided on a better course of action. We are moving the ship to shallow waters, so should too much water enter the hull, the ship will safely rest on the bottom of the ocean while keeping the officers quarters safely above the water line. We have also placed a large order with our business partners to acquire paper towels, to allow our incredible crew members the opportunity to try and soak up the water breaching the steerage levels of the ship. We are in talks with our preferred board-owned business-partners about the feasibility of pumping air into the hull of the ship to help buoyancy, and if ineffective, may allow some crew members access to limited amounts of breathable air. Some may ask, why not just fix the hole in the ship? Well that's what our legacy competitors would do, and we like to think we are different, better, more nimble, more innovative. While fixing the hole would certainly solve the problem, we believe this alternative solution designed by Wet-Ventures could lead to better long term stakeholder value. In the mean time, and while we take the time needed to study the final implementation of these interventions, which are tentatively scheduled to begin late next year, please remember to blow forcefully into the tube at the top of your life vest labeled "manual inflation". Please join other leaders in the officers quarters above the water line for cheese it's and pepsi products, but we ask you towel dry and wipe your feet dry."
From the executives of the U.S.S. BJ "We have identified a massive hole in the hull of our great ship. Very large quantities of water are as we speak gushing into the hull. We have all the knowledge and tools to make a proper repair of the hull and stop the water from coming in. However, upon high level discussions with your "leadership" team, we have decided on a better course of action. We are moving the ship to shallow waters, so should too much water enter the hull, the ship will safely rest on the bottom of the ocean while keeping the officers quarters safely above the water line. We have also placed a large order with our business partners to acquire paper towels, to allow our incredible crew members the opportunity to try and soak up the water breaching the steerage levels of the ship. We are in talks with our preferred board-owned business-partners about the feasibility of pumping air into the hull of the ship to help buoyancy, and if ineffective, may allow some crew members access to limited amounts of breathable air. Some may ask, why not just fix the hole in the ship? Well that's what our legacy competitors would do, and we like to think we are different, better, more nimble, more innovative. While fixing the hole would certainly solve the problem, we believe this alternative solution designed by Wet-Ventures could lead to better long term stakeholder value. In the mean time, and while we take the time needed to study the final implementation of these interventions, which are tentatively scheduled to begin late next year, please remember to blow forcefully into the tube at the top of your life vest labeled "manual inflation". Please join other leaders in the officers quarters above the water line for cheese it's and pepsi products, but we ask you towel dry and wipe your feet dry."
May I suggest we add another hole into the hull of the ship? It will allow all that water to go back out into the sea where it belongs.
04-26-2022, 11:07 AM
#25
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,228
Originally Posted by IWalkJun12
From the NK side, I知 afraid the buying of us is to right size/staff B6. I知 afraid planes will be parked or returned and stagnation will occur for awhile. All the airframes we both have in the air today will not be in the air a month after a merger is complete. Only saving grace is future orders, but we all know they only count when the jet is on the ramp.
04-26-2022, 11:25 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Position: 320 Captain
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by IWalkJun12
From the NK side, I知 afraid the buying of us is to right size/staff B6. I知 afraid planes will be parked or returned and stagnation will occur for awhile. All the airframes we both have in the air today will not be in the air a month after a merger is complete. Only saving grace is future orders, but we all know they only count when the jet is on the ramp.
That being said, as an NK pilot, we are safe either way we go, so not too much to worry about in terms of job security. It would however be unwise and costly for JB to simply buy us out and not use the assets they are purchasing. In terms of pilot retention, I think the B6/NK merger does a lot more for pilots looking for a career stop over that of a NK/F9 merger. The B6 product is superior in terms of pay, benefits, and simply put the relationship between the pilots and management. I am speaking only anecdotally here but, a quick venture to the Frontier forum is very enlightening to how poorly management treats their pilots. It's almost as if they treat you like a bottom of the barrel regional pilot. This is not too say that B6 has a great relationship, but having friends at both places I can say with certainty that these relationships are not equal. Hell, at Spirit, it's been an incredible place to work. You call out sick, you don't hear anything, you're not called into a meeting to explain your absences like you work for a minimum wage job. I also want to be very clear, this is NOT an attack on the pilot group at Frontier, they are a fantastic bunch. Simply an anecdotal look at the potential difference in the type of work experience we can expect.
Another interesting thing I've seen/heard from some co-workers is that a F9/NK merger "makes more sense", or that we complement each other better. Honestly, I see it as six of one, half dozen of the other. While I think there's a lot of overlap on the east coast with B6/NK, Spirit ads value to both F9 and B6 some incredible growth opportunities. There's a lot in the midwest that Spirit covers that B6 and F9 don't. Truly the only thing we share in common with F9 is our contract and pricing structure. But when making an investment for a long-term strategy, that doesn't really mean much. Given the opportunity, B6 will become the 5th largest airline with a network that really competes with the legacies. If folks can come to work here and commute on their own metal, are paid comparable to that of the legacies, and be a part of some growth with opportunities to expand further, that seems like a good option.
Anyway, i'd much rather retire from B6 than F9.
04-26-2022, 01:02 PM
#28
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,879
Originally Posted by LoopsMcDoops
NK here too. I'm pretty sure our management has checked out. Seemingly, there's no path forward for us without being purchased/merged any longer. I'm betting during covid, this became the realization from Spirit management. I've no crystal ball, but prior to covid, we were buying planes, adding routes, bases, etc. During and now after covid, there's been no commitment to invest in our infrastructure and right-size our operational side to match our growth/deliveries. So in short, i'm saying it seems management has been and is fully committed to no longer being the entity that is Spirit.
That being said, as an NK pilot, we are safe either way we go, so not too much to worry about in terms of job security. It would however be unwise and costly for JB to simply buy us out and not use the assets they are purchasing. In terms of pilot retention, I think the B6/NK merger does a lot more for pilots looking for a career stop over that of a NK/F9 merger. The B6 product is superior in terms of pay, benefits, and simply put the relationship between the pilots and management. I am speaking only anecdotally here but, a quick venture to the Frontier forum is very enlightening to how poorly management treats their pilots. It's almost as if they treat you like a bottom of the barrel regional pilot. This is not too say that B6 has a great relationship, but having friends at both places I can say with certainty that these relationships are not equal. Hell, at Spirit, it's been an incredible place to work. You call out sick, you don't hear anything, you're not called into a meeting to explain your absences like you work for a minimum wage job. I also want to be very clear, this is NOT an attack on the pilot group at Frontier, they are a fantastic bunch. Simply an anecdotal look at the potential difference in the type of work experience we can expect.
Another interesting thing I've seen/heard from some co-workers is that a F9/NK merger "makes more sense", or that we complement each other better. Honestly, I see it as six of one, half dozen of the other. While I think there's a lot of overlap on the east coast with B6/NK, Spirit ads value to both F9 and B6 some incredible growth opportunities. There's a lot in the midwest that Spirit covers that B6 and F9 don't. Truly the only thing we share in common with F9 is our contract and pricing structure. But when making an investment for a long-term strategy, that doesn't really mean much. Given the opportunity, B6 will become the 5th largest airline with a network that really competes with the legacies. If folks can come to work here and commute on their own metal, are paid comparable to that of the legacies, and be a part of some growth with opportunities to expand further, that seems like a good option.
Anyway, i'd much rather retire from B6 than F9.
That being said, as an NK pilot, we are safe either way we go, so not too much to worry about in terms of job security. It would however be unwise and costly for JB to simply buy us out and not use the assets they are purchasing. In terms of pilot retention, I think the B6/NK merger does a lot more for pilots looking for a career stop over that of a NK/F9 merger. The B6 product is superior in terms of pay, benefits, and simply put the relationship between the pilots and management. I am speaking only anecdotally here but, a quick venture to the Frontier forum is very enlightening to how poorly management treats their pilots. It's almost as if they treat you like a bottom of the barrel regional pilot. This is not too say that B6 has a great relationship, but having friends at both places I can say with certainty that these relationships are not equal. Hell, at Spirit, it's been an incredible place to work. You call out sick, you don't hear anything, you're not called into a meeting to explain your absences like you work for a minimum wage job. I also want to be very clear, this is NOT an attack on the pilot group at Frontier, they are a fantastic bunch. Simply an anecdotal look at the potential difference in the type of work experience we can expect.
Another interesting thing I've seen/heard from some co-workers is that a F9/NK merger "makes more sense", or that we complement each other better. Honestly, I see it as six of one, half dozen of the other. While I think there's a lot of overlap on the east coast with B6/NK, Spirit ads value to both F9 and B6 some incredible growth opportunities. There's a lot in the midwest that Spirit covers that B6 and F9 don't. Truly the only thing we share in common with F9 is our contract and pricing structure. But when making an investment for a long-term strategy, that doesn't really mean much. Given the opportunity, B6 will become the 5th largest airline with a network that really competes with the legacies. If folks can come to work here and commute on their own metal, are paid comparable to that of the legacies, and be a part of some growth with opportunities to expand further, that seems like a good option.
Anyway, i'd much rather retire from B6 than F9.
The JB CEO on today's call did, not entirely directly or very eloquently, hint at more or less what you have said. That a JB+NK merger would make the company's scale and breadth more attractive to pilots and the inference was help attract and retain pilots.
I also agree that the plan is not to take 2 airlines combined and total 1.5 the size at the end. I don't believe they WANT to be smaller or slow growth, only that they, at least with their public rhetoric, aren't willing to say what they will need to do to make the company maximally desirable for pilots.
It's either an EPIC loss of complete situational awareness or public posturing. I haven't decided which yet.
04-26-2022, 01:04 PM
#29
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,879
Originally Posted by Flyby1206
🤣😭
May I suggest we add another hole into the hull of the ship? It will allow all that water to go back out into the sea where it belongs.
May I suggest we add another hole into the hull of the ship? It will allow all that water to go back out into the sea where it belongs.
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