Any practical examples of McCaskill-Bond?
09-03-2022 | 05:15 AM
#41
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined: Sep 2011
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From: Airbus Capt
People move base? If people junior to me can be more senior on the more junior jet, it will be beneficial to go there? Like it takes more seniority at DL to be a WB captain vs a NB captain? And if your base doesn't have that equipment, you will move down? Honestly cannot believe you even ask that question? Math?
We are going from 2 groups to 4 groups for the NK joiners. I assume the seniority order will be 320CA, 220CA, 320FO, 220FO. Every 220CA directly cuts into the RS of any 320CA.
We are going from 2 groups to 4 groups for the NK joiners. I assume the seniority order will be 320CA, 220CA, 320FO, 220FO. Every 220CA directly cuts into the RS of any 320CA.
By the way, we now have approximately 150 captains awarded the A220, with many more in the next few days. The seniority difference between A220 CA and A320 CA varies by a lot less than you think. It varies by degree, not magnitude...
Math is only as good as your assumptions, good luck with your mess Einstein.
09-03-2022 | 05:19 AM
#42
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined: Sep 2011
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From: Airbus Capt
With AA/US merger, everything was under consideration. You’re lucky to have no furloughees, but the 3 fleets at JetBlue could cause some unexpected “stove piping”.
With arbitration each side will pitch their list (with reasoning) and the arbitrator will create a compromise list after analyzing the argument.
With arbitration each side will pitch their list (with reasoning) and the arbitrator will create a compromise list after analyzing the argument.
09-03-2022 | 05:30 AM
#43
Perennial Reserve
Joined: Jan 2018
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As long as they have differing types they are by definition a separate category, unlike 319/320/321. A220 and A321 pilots are NOT interchangeable. The small difference in payscale between the two certainly mitigates the effect that will have on overall seniority but for everyday practical purposes (scheduling seniority and basing) having multiple types does have an effect. Even things as trivial as ETOPS/nonETOPS have their effects. It isn’t just payscale that affects QOL, particularly if you desire to live near a certain base.
09-03-2022 | 06:59 AM
#45
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2013
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From: CA
No idea...but I can't imagine any weight given to any aircraft JB or Spirit have....All narrow body etc.
09-03-2022 | 09:27 AM
#46
SDQ Base Chief
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: 320 CA
As long as they have differing types they are by definition a separate category, unlike 319/320/321. A220 and A321 pilots are NOT interchangeable. The small difference in payscale between the two certainly mitigates the effect that will have on overall seniority but for everyday practical purposes (scheduling seniority and basing) having multiple types does have an effect. Even things as trivial as ETOPS/nonETOPS have their effects. It isn’t just payscale that affects QOL, particularly if you desire to live near a certain base.
Thank Joseph I’ve been through a merger and can swipe past these incorrect assumptions on the ISL
Spirit is the junior
JBlu is the senior
Spirit will lose relative seniority
JBLU will lose longevity.
Both sides will complain about getting screwed
Personally, looking forward to the new airline and scoring a top end JCBA
Best advice to give to guys on their first merger; it will be ok, breathe.
Spirit is the junior
JBlu is the senior
Spirit will lose relative seniority
JBLU will lose longevity.
Both sides will complain about getting screwed
Personally, looking forward to the new airline and scoring a top end JCBA
Best advice to give to guys on their first merger; it will be ok, breathe.
Well said
09-03-2022 | 08:46 PM
#47
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From: Aircraft & Seat: old & hard
So, not complaining, just saying.... Almost 10 years at NK. 19%RS. If we go straight DOH I think I will be around 38%RS, At 50/50 I will be around 30%RS. So definitely more than 5%. And I would go from bidding 35% as captain in base to lower than 80% and on reserve, because of the addition of the A220. Yeah, I could bid those, but I would have to commute to the east coast. Also, I do realize that this is a forward looking statement, and there is no guarantee any of this will happen. Just being cautiously pessimistic.
I’m gonna jump on the bandwagon here too. Although theoretically possible that you could go from bidding 35% in base to less than 80%, it’s completely unlikely and not even worth mentioning even if you’re “not complaining”
Pay rates on A220 vs A320 is very close and not remotely similar to widebody vs narrowbody pay at legacies. You’re also assuming everyone other than you will choose to commute to the A220 on the east coast for better seniority. If you’re not willing to do it, chances are others won’t either, not that it would offer much different seniority anyway.
Its good to be cautiously pessimistic, but voicing it can cause a B1tchf3st pretty fast
Pay rates on A220 vs A320 is very close and not remotely similar to widebody vs narrowbody pay at legacies. You’re also assuming everyone other than you will choose to commute to the A220 on the east coast for better seniority. If you’re not willing to do it, chances are others won’t either, not that it would offer much different seniority anyway.
Its good to be cautiously pessimistic, but voicing it can cause a B1tchf3st pretty fast
i agree with the other guy. how do you figure you go from bidding 35% as captain in base to lower than 80% and on reserve because the a220 is in some other base? how does that "math" work? i mean, you're not just talking about the combination of the seniority lists, you're talking about people changing bases and equipment and upgrading and downgrading and everything even after the combination of the seniority lists. that's a lot of "if this happens, this will be the result" type of thinking, and i don't see how you can just put it down to "math". if you are that good at predicting the results of that many moving parts, i would like you to tell me the powerball numbers for tomorrow night.
Look, I asked a question, without any attitude. I just wanted to know how you quantified some of your assumptions, but now know you just made a mess.
By the way, we now have approximately 150 captains awarded the A220, with many more in the next few days. The seniority difference between A220 CA and A320 CA varies by a lot less than you think. It varies by degree, not magnitude...
Math is only as good as your assumptions, good luck with your mess Einstein.
By the way, we now have approximately 150 captains awarded the A220, with many more in the next few days. The seniority difference between A220 CA and A320 CA varies by a lot less than you think. It varies by degree, not magnitude...
Math is only as good as your assumptions, good luck with your mess Einstein.
On top of that, You guys have a small airplane that pays less, and therefore (assumption on my side....) is less senior. So people could opt to be junior to me on the 320, or more senior on the 220. So with about 100 small planes and 400 big planes could be another dilution of seniority of 25%, having me end up at probably around 80% as a captain on the 320 (and I would fly the 220 if they base it where I live tomorrow)
Haven't seen the awards for the 220, but in my experience pilots are pretty eager for the extra buck. And we have 25% on reserve at least.
Last edited by symbian simian; 09-03-2022 at 09:07 PM.
09-04-2022 | 03:14 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2011
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If we go by 50% relative seniority , and 50% date of hire, I will go from 19% to 30% company wide. That is straight from the seniority list, no discussion. About 50% of us are captain, and 50% are FO, and at my seniority level the FOs bypassing are pretty close to zero. So as a captain I will go from 37% in base (from the last bid), to about 74% , and definitely company wide from 30% to 60%. That is pure straight math, absolutely no way to refute it.
On top of that, You guys have a small airplane that pays less, and therefore (assumption on my side....) is less senior. So people could opt to be junior to me on the 320, or more senior on the 220. So with about 100 small planes and 400 big planes could be another dilution of seniority of 25%, having me end up at probably around 80% as a captain on the 320 (and I would fly the 220 if they base it where I live tomorrow)
Haven't seen the awards for the 220, but in my experience pilots are pretty eager for the extra buck. And we have 25% on reserve at least.
On top of that, You guys have a small airplane that pays less, and therefore (assumption on my side....) is less senior. So people could opt to be junior to me on the 320, or more senior on the 220. So with about 100 small planes and 400 big planes could be another dilution of seniority of 25%, having me end up at probably around 80% as a captain on the 320 (and I would fly the 220 if they base it where I live tomorrow)
Haven't seen the awards for the 220, but in my experience pilots are pretty eager for the extra buck. And we have 25% on reserve at least.
09-04-2022 | 03:30 AM
#49
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2013
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If we go by 50% relative seniority , and 50% date of hire, I will go from 19% to 30% company wide. That is straight from the seniority list, no discussion. About 50% of us are captain, and 50% are FO, and at my seniority level the FOs bypassing are pretty close to zero. So as a captain I will go from 37% in base (from the last bid), to about 74% , and definitely company wide from 30% to 60%. That is pure straight math, absolutely no way to refute it.
On top of that, You guys have a small airplane that pays less, and therefore (assumption on my side....) is less senior. So people could opt to be junior to me on the 320, or more senior on the 220. So with about 100 small planes and 400 big planes could be another dilution of seniority of 25%, having me end up at probably around 80% as a captain on the 320 (and I would fly the 220 if they base it where I live tomorrow)
Haven't seen the awards for the 220, but in my experience pilots are pretty eager for the extra buck. And we have 25% on reserve at least.
On top of that, You guys have a small airplane that pays less, and therefore (assumption on my side....) is less senior. So people could opt to be junior to me on the 320, or more senior on the 220. So with about 100 small planes and 400 big planes could be another dilution of seniority of 25%, having me end up at probably around 80% as a captain on the 320 (and I would fly the 220 if they base it where I live tomorrow)
Haven't seen the awards for the 220, but in my experience pilots are pretty eager for the extra buck. And we have 25% on reserve at least.
why do that? Why not just interleave the pilots as pointed out in the original post?
09-04-2022 | 05:15 AM
#50
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Joined: Nov 2013
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From: Aircraft & Seat: old & hard
Like I said, I haven’t seen the awards. But there’s still a lot of people that are currently on the 170. I guess once the 220 fleet grows, it will go more junior. Hopefully I’m wrong.
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