I think the X/Y list is one of my favorites pieces from Spirits side of things.

 

Dont discount High Fives.

 

We need to negotiate a ratio High Fives to Lift Awards. I have so many to cash in

 

Whats the point of any kind of restriction? To restrict, right? Eventually the same situation will arise just at the lower credit minimum. Pretty simple... Why have any restrictions on the credit you can drop to? Why limit your schedule flexibility?

 

Absolutely. Give management a millimeter and they want the whole damn kilometer...

😉

 

Preeeeeeeeach

 

That's adorable. The real world doesn't really work that way, where you just get EVERYTHING you ever wanted, and then some.

I have no doubt... well, actually, knowing this management team, I do have doubts, that they will simply just agree to DTZ in it's pure form. If we stand our ground 100%, do I think there is a chance to get them to agree to it, with the leverage circumstances such that they are? Probably. Do I think that in the final back and forth final offers, that we have to give something up for it, or take less of something (less gains) we want for it? Yes.

You can be a child (not you specifically) and say we want pure DTZ, oh and EVERYTHING else we ask for, industry leading everything, and then some new sh#t no one's ever heard of before, and then double it all, all of it, or we will just sit here until you give it all to us. But that just isn't real life.

We have incredible leverage, no doubt. And I do think all things considered we should expect an industry LEADING JCBA. But even that will have limits.

I see no one else answered the previous question about why give an inch, and allow DTZ to be watered down , even a little bit. I can't and won't speak for anyone else, but I will give an honest answer that speaks only for me.

I know this management. They have their strengths, and weaknesses for sure, but at a minimum I know them. They will not likely simply here the concept of DTZ in it's pure form and say "sounds good to us"... That's not going to happen. But if they do, I'm fine with it. But I know they likely won't. They won't simply be fine with paying pilots healthcare costs, funding their PTO bank, vacation bank, paying their life insurance, and paying to send them to the sim every three months to keep them current so someone can block ZERO hours in a year and run their side business. Or keep the family insurance while their entrepreneur wife runs her small business.

Is that an extreme example? Not really, one of the NK said in a previous discussion that he drops most of his schedule to run the family business. And I'm sure there are more that don't play on this message board. JetBlue has a company to run, and a profit and loss statement they are trying to rebuild, and I can't blame them for not wanting to employoy those that don't actually want to meaningfully contribute to the success of the company. Do I have those same concerns for someone who wants to work 35-40 hours a month. Not really, at least it's half a schedule. And there are mechanisms for that half a month pilot to take the whole month off, occasionally, for big trips or whatever. Vacation, PTO, the trade board. Whatever. But to just say you can maintain full-time benefits and currency on the company dime with no requirement to ever actually work is just silly.

But that is only a part of my concern. Most of what people say (those that I find to be credible, and not lying manipulators) they actually do with DTZ can be done with DT~35-40 anyway. Most say they like to drop a trip or two a month and work less than their award. Or they say they like to rebuild their schedule, which in normal pilot terms means to swap trips. Or they like to drop trips in base A and pick up in base B. All of that can be done with DT~35-40. In simple terms, drop half your trips in base A, pick up trips in base B. Drop your second half of trips in base A, pick up trips in base B. Same goes for rebuilding. Wanna sit all month for premium, drop the trips in the first half of the month, and after you get a few premium trips, drop your second half of the month. Does DT~35-40 make it a little harder, maybe. Sorry, not really that sorry. DT~35-40 would allow me to do anything I've ever wanted to do, and then some. On the rare occasion you want a whole month off, use some vacation or some of our PTO bank. If you regularly want the whole month off, go back and read my first paragraph on this subject, and maybe don't submit your application to be a full time airline pilot and expect our company to pay your healthcare, vacation, PTO, life insurance and pay to keep you legal and current while your only real priority is running your side business.

This all goes back to what happens when management hates the idea of pure DTZ, and the ultimate choice is keep pure DTZ and take less gains in other areas of the contract, or maximize gains in other areas of the contract but get DT~35-40???

You purists will give up other gains, and take DTZ. DTZ in it's PUREST form benefits a small fraction of the pilots. Very few ever take FULL advantage of it. Most use it to go below their award, but not to ZERO. The gains we would give up to keep it are likely universal benefits that ALL could enjoy. So for me I'd rather get that "everything we ever wanted, and then some, but with DT-xx" contract. DT-xx still allows great flexibility, allows most to do what they want to do with it, and the extra negotiating capital left over can be used to push up the gains in the rest of the contract higher than what we could if we demanded pure DTZ.
​​​​​​
I know the response to this post will be that we can just demand pure DTZ and demand everything else, and then more, and then double it all or we don't agree. Although I agree we have incredible leverage, that is pure fantasy talk. So when our guys at the negotiating table inevitably have to start moving the pieces around the chess board, I would rather take more of the contractual items that are used and benefit ALL of us, vs moving more of that negotiating capital towards the pure ZERO DTZ that is only used to its maximum pure potential by a small subgroup of the group. A group I don't think ultimately contribute much to our pilot corps or our company.

And before anyone accuses me of being a company guy, the long timers on this board know that I have historically been accused of being too hard on the company.

Like I said, I can't speak for any other Blue dudes, other than some conversations I've had with friends who generally agreed with me. But there is at least one answer as to "why give an inch" on DTZ.

And no, I still do not believe DTZ is "industry standard", but will wait until a thorough joint contract comparison guide is published to make that decision.

 

Name another major that has a minimum credit requirement... I'll wait. DTZ is absolutely industry standard and anything less would be massive failure on the negotiators part.

Why tf are you so willfully ignorant of this? It's like you've been psyop'd into carrying water for mgmt and constantly arguing in every thread to keep that sub-industry garbage in the JCBA. I wouldn't fly for anybody with a min-credit requirement. Hard-stop. Line in the sand. NO vote. I'll work to recall union members and/or quit if that trash ends up in the JCBA.

 

I am so split on this other majors having DTZ thing. I have heard everything from it being industry standard, to it being Spirits best and greatest scheduling creation. I honestly need to see some union literature on this one to cut fact from propoganda.

 

Spirit's best and greatest thing are the grid rules.