pilotca86

Legitimate question GoPats. I don't think we should have given a 23% paycut in 2003 to "save" the company. The company lied to us. How so? They said we would all be in this together and would all do better when the company did better. Big lie. Shame on us for believing them. Arpey got a 23% pay raise shortly after that and then took millions in bonus money while giving us nothing in return. If I were in another industry I could just quit and move down the road. Not so as a pilot.

Our union failed. They trusted management. I still would suggest another career unless your passion for flying blinds you into thinking that working in an industry like this will be a rewarding one.

Good luck!

GoPats

My aviation career aspirations died back in the mid-90s. I still keep current both in the field and academically.
I miss the non-business part of flying, no doubt about it.

Your point is well taken though. I think AMR's logo should be pictured next to the definition of what employer-employee relations should not be.

It does look like mgmt wants to take the next round into BK court. Their last offer was met with disdain from your union so maybe they've figured out what these guys are all about.

Something is wrong with our system when companies turn on their employees instead of turning to them during rough times. Lack of leadership and real mgmt vision seems to be an epidemic.

Can you imagine the pioneers of the 20's and 30's using these tactics?

Good luck to you guys. I hope in the end it all works out for the best (for the employees that is - mgmt has plenty of chutes).

atpcliff

Then they should quit and get a better job outside the aviation industry. If their aviation job is so crappy, it should be easy to get a much better job outside of aviation.

cliff
GRB

CE750

Because there are so many jobs available today with the 9%+ unemployment rate? I recall being out of work in mid 2008 and looking for jobs at Starbucks and Safeway and having my applications ignored...

pilotca86

"Then they should quit and get a better job outside the aviation industry. If their aviation job is so crappy, it should be easy to get a much better job outside of aviation."

I don't disagree. However, easier said than done. If you are a relatively young FO (maybe 45?!) and have three kids to support, house payment and so on, it's hard to start over. There were many pilots that were furloughed in the early 2000's. It was the best thing that could have happened to them. They did go out and get better jobs because they were forced to. A little harder to pull the trigger when you are the employed person.

pilotca86

"Your point is well taken though. I think AMR's logo should be pictured next to the definition of what employer-employee relations should not be.

It does look like mgmt wants to take the next round into BK court. Their last offer was met with disdain from your union so maybe they've figured out what these guys are all about.

Something is wrong with our system when companies turn on their employees instead of turning to them during rough times. Lack of leadership and real mgmt vision seems to be an epidemic."

At most business' they look for ways to kick the competition's butt. Here, they have no idea how to do that. What do they do? Constantly come after the pilots when we are clearly not the highest paid. They are paid much more than management at successful airlines. They, and the press, never point that out.

atpcliff

If there are not better jobs outside of aviation, then how crappy can their airline jobs be?

A "crappy" job, to me, means that there are LOTS of other better jobs.

If you are comparing your "crappy" airline job to how it was in the airline industry 15-20 years ago, to me it does not make sense. We are where we are today, and I compare all the jobs/career fields available worldwide. If you really want a $500K a year job where you are at home 3 weeks a month, and do almost nothing, then you need to move to another planet where that is possible. I am reality based.

cliff
GRB

pilotca86

I've never expected to make $500,000/yr or have off three weeks in a month. Who called this a crappy job? It rocks.

CE750

it's sad that we can't expect more without being unrealistic to some people. It reminds me of the old story a UAL guy told me about how everyone talks about Southwest and Fedex today like they're the best thing since sliced bread... It's akin to the fat ugly girl at the end of a bar after a long night of drinking.. starts to look good after a while.. that's Fedex and WN today.

pilotca86

Sometimes that ugly girl at the end of the bar will take care of you, love you, and be a good mother to your kids. The chick in the high heels and short skirt wants a Mercedes, a 4 carat diamond, a 6000 square foot house and she aint watching those kids.

Funny, I flew with a new FO in 1998 who had come over from FedEx. I asked him why would he leave there to come here. He said he felt he was being paid to be in prison. I flew with him again after everything at my company went south. I asked him what he thought now. He said he would still rather be here, he just couldn't take that kind of flying.

With that said, I look up to FedEx and WN. Certainly not the ugly chick at the end of the bar anymore. They are taking care of their employees. How much does it cost to just treat people right?

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. But you better be willing to take a lot of bad with the good. Yes all professions are like that. But in this profession it is hard to change jobs when you have been at the same place for over 25 years. You will have to start all over. Fortunately for me, I'll just retire.