Any 117 experts here?
01-19-2018, 05:53 AM
#31
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Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,117
Originally Posted by Booker
It's been a while since I worked for SureJet, but wasn't 990 Toffie the A-Tech Center?
Pretty sure his 4th floor office is on Delta Boulevard.
01-21-2018, 08:27 AM
#32
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Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 774
Originally Posted by CBreezy
According to the LOIs I've read, I'll do my best to answer the questions. Outside of a contract, other than being affirmatively being "released to rest" yes, the company can call you back to the airport and have you operate a flight within a FDP. They can hold you on duty until the end of your FDP. There isn't really any clarification whether affirmative intent is taking company scheduled transportation to the hotel. It is intentionally left vague and very much favors the company.
Regarding the DH leg, when the decision is made is irrelevant. As long as you are still on duty, and as you are not "in rest," the company can assign you to fly until your FDP clock expires. Theoretically, they could cancel your DH reservation or even your hotel room reservation and recall you to the airport to operate as many flights as fit within the FDP. Lastly, I believe the FAA expects you to show up to ever duty period fully rested to operate within your max FDP. And yes, I'm disappointed that is the interpretation that used.
Regarding the DH leg, when the decision is made is irrelevant. As long as you are still on duty, and as you are not "in rest," the company can assign you to fly until your FDP clock expires. Theoretically, they could cancel your DH reservation or even your hotel room reservation and recall you to the airport to operate as many flights as fit within the FDP. Lastly, I believe the FAA expects you to show up to ever duty period fully rested to operate within your max FDP. And yes, I'm disappointed that is the interpretation that used.
"When I opened the beer I was legally off duty, when my phone rang I was legally on duty" since the operator had affirmative intent of assigning additional flying after my previous "last" leg blocked in with no further intention of flying.
How can the FAA can expect you to operate to your max FDP since it's defined in Table B and changes with legs that are added after block in with affirmative intent of additional flying?
01-21-2018, 09:02 AM
#33
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,275
The best way to get your head around this is to accept the fact that the FAA does not care AT ALL about your personal rest, health, schedule, or convenience... they do not have a mandate to interfere in the free labor market.
They only thing they do care about is that you have the legally specified period free of duty with a rest opportunity prior to flying pax.
There's no biological imperative that would prevent you from returning and finishing out a legal FDP after you think/hope you're done for the day.
That could be a work rules debate, but there's no science that says you can't safely work more. By the same token, the FAA doesn't care if you have a beer on your DHD, as long as you're done flying for the day.
They only thing they do care about is that you have the legally specified period free of duty with a rest opportunity prior to flying pax.
There's no biological imperative that would prevent you from returning and finishing out a legal FDP after you think/hope you're done for the day.
That could be a work rules debate, but there's no science that says you can't safely work more. By the same token, the FAA doesn't care if you have a beer on your DHD, as long as you're done flying for the day.
01-21-2018, 08:34 PM
#34
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Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 774
That's not the offense, no one expects them to care about labor relations. What is offensive is how plain English passed into law by 117 can be twisted via creative LOI. They turn it into what they want it to be instead of explaining what it says.
01-22-2018, 09:02 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by Happyflyer
That's not the offense, no one expects them to care about labor relations. What is offensive is how plain English passed into law by 117 can be twisted via creative LOI. They turn it into what they want it to be instead of explaining what it says.
I agree with this.
For those that care, I’ve emailed my Scheduling chair and it was explained that Delta and ALPA have agreed not to use the Tutt interpretation. In that sense, what DALPA said about it being illegal to accept a continuation of an FDP after the brakes are set is in fact true if you don’t apply the Tutt interpretation.
01-26-2018, 07:44 AM
#36
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 747 Captain (Ret,)
Posts: 804
Originally Posted by rickair7777
What this ultimately comes down to is can they notify you?
If you're driving home, the answer is no, unless they hold you on a RAP, which would be non-rest, which would push your availability tomorrow to the right. If you're not on a RAP, why on earth would you answer the damn phone???
If they catch you in the jetway, then that comes down to company policy/CBA.
The FAA never intended that you would suddenly and automatically, upon block-in, enter rest from which there would be no return for ten+ hours.
People often confuse 117 with a "pilot QOL protection act". It's not that, not by any means. For example, they company can put you on a three-leg, 28 hour deadhead to timbukthree following a 14 hour duty, 9 hour block flying day. Suck? Yes. Illegal? No. The FAA and 117 doesn't care and has ZERO bearing on what happens to you AFTER 121 flying is done. The company has unlimited discretion to abuse you then, and you don't even have the systemic protections of a fatigue call. The company is of course obligated to give the required rest before your next 121 flight.
QOL comes from your contract, not 117.
If you're driving home, the answer is no, unless they hold you on a RAP, which would be non-rest, which would push your availability tomorrow to the right. If you're not on a RAP, why on earth would you answer the damn phone???
If they catch you in the jetway, then that comes down to company policy/CBA.
The FAA never intended that you would suddenly and automatically, upon block-in, enter rest from which there would be no return for ten+ hours.
People often confuse 117 with a "pilot QOL protection act". It's not that, not by any means. For example, they company can put you on a three-leg, 28 hour deadhead to timbukthree following a 14 hour duty, 9 hour block flying day. Suck? Yes. Illegal? No. The FAA and 117 doesn't care and has ZERO bearing on what happens to you AFTER 121 flying is done. The company has unlimited discretion to abuse you then, and you don't even have the systemic protections of a fatigue call. The company is of course obligated to give the required rest before your next 121 flight.
QOL comes from your contract, not 117.
This is addressing only the driving home scenario.
A reserve at many airlines would not be on a rest period while driving home. Neither would he be on duty, but he would be required to be on call.
If called when driving home, depending on the cell phone laws in his area, he would be expected to call back within an undefined reasonable period to accept an assignment. This assignment would need to allow a ten hour prospective rest period prior to report time. He could not be called back to the airport to take another assignment.
If you are commuting by air, you would generally be required to inform the scheduler of when you would be out of contact, just like any other time during your reserve period when you know you will not be reachable.
Joe
01-26-2018, 08:52 AM
#37
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Originally Posted by joepilot
Hi Rick.
This is addressing only the driving home scenario.
A reserve at many airlines would not be on a rest period while driving home. Neither would he be on duty, but he would be required to be on call.
If called when driving home, depending on the cell phone laws in his area, he would be expected to call back within an undefined reasonable period to accept an assignment. This assignment would need to allow a ten hour prospective rest period prior to report time. He could not be called back to the airport to take another assignment.
If you are commuting by air, you would generally be required to inform the scheduler of when you would be out of contact, just like any other time during your reserve period when you know you will not be reachable.
Joe
This is addressing only the driving home scenario.
A reserve at many airlines would not be on a rest period while driving home. Neither would he be on duty, but he would be required to be on call.
If called when driving home, depending on the cell phone laws in his area, he would be expected to call back within an undefined reasonable period to accept an assignment. This assignment would need to allow a ten hour prospective rest period prior to report time. He could not be called back to the airport to take another assignment.
If you are commuting by air, you would generally be required to inform the scheduler of when you would be out of contact, just like any other time during your reserve period when you know you will not be reachable.
Joe
State traffic laws are not the companies or the FAA's problem by any stretch, if you need to call them back, use voice-activated blue-tooth or take the next exit and pull over.
If they release you to rest, then you do NOT have to call them back, since you cannot have a duty to the company during rest. Depending on work rules, if they can get hold of you, they can legally per the FAA interpretation require you to come back and work during your remaining legal FDP... that was settled by the FAA general counsel.
Bottom line, if the company wants your time after duty to count as rest they need to leave you alone, and cannot place under a duty to be notifiable. But if they do notify you somehow, they can legally reel you back in. Again, this is FARs, not work rules. Remember the FAA never, ever cares what happens to you AFTER 121 flying. They only care what came before. Same with compensatory rest, which people mistakenly thought HAD to happen within such and such time... not true, if it didn't happen within the specified time frame then you're not legal for 121 flying, but you can still deadhead all over the planet, attend training, mop floors, whatever.
01-27-2018, 01:37 PM
#38
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 747 Captain (Ret,)
Posts: 804
At my house a reserve is never released to rest until he is given another assignment. Even if his flight duty period has exceeded max, he is not relieved of the duty to answer his phone for his next assignment. His next assignment determines his ten hour prospective FAA rest period, during which he is not required to answer the phone.
So, he may be driving home, and get a call telling him that he has a trip reporting to the airport in 15 hours, say report at noon. He could then turn off his phone and have a beer. He would then start his FAA ten hours rest period at 02:00.
Joe
So, he may be driving home, and get a call telling him that he has a trip reporting to the airport in 15 hours, say report at noon. He could then turn off his phone and have a beer. He would then start his FAA ten hours rest period at 02:00.
Joe
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