SkyHigh - I can say from experience that having a schedule like your friends may feel like the best thing in the world EXCEPT for the certain times of year when the funds get tight and the work is slow or there is no work at all. If it weren't for my furlough I most likely wouldn't have met and married my wife, we wouldn't have had our daughter and I wouldn't have been there to see her first steps and the such. Most likely I would have married a flight attendant - got divorced and be living on have of what the majors are making now after 50% pay cuts.

As you said your friend is living "meagerly" and that is ok for some people. For myself I'd like to be able to buy a bigger home for a second child, have health insurance and be able to have one parent stay at home and raise our children.

One other thought as for doing a variety of jobs is the security. I'm trying to get out of my Baja Bush flying now because of the danger factor. We all know that flying at FL 240 in a state of the art aircraft is a much better place than being down just over the tree tops or flying over snow using a hand held GPS.

BTW - for any charter guys w/ no insurance you can get $500k term for under $20/mo. My wife wouldn't let me fly SEL into Baja without it. Seems like a good deal.

Just my two cents.....

 

I don't want to start this again, as I hit on this earlier in the thread, but;

Those salaries, except for the Regional CA, and FO salaries, are more than, or equivelant to what you would make in any other career field, except some specialty fields, like doctors. As for the regional pay listed above, it is, for the most part, where people's salaries who do not work in aviation tend to fall. Most people I know, outside of aviation, have had their salary top off at around the $75-$80K/year range.

The issue here is not that pilots are "underpaid", and hurting for money, except maybe a first year regional FO, but they simply believe that they are underpaid for what they do. I think a distinction needs to be made as far as that is concerned. I have a hard time understanding why a pilot making over $100K/year can come across as though he is penching pennies, yet I know numerous people making less than that in other fields, and they are living a good life, have a nice home, cars, family, etc. I don't think it is an issue of being "underpaid" as compared to other career field's salaries, but yet, underpaid for the job, and all involved with being a pilot.

 

baja i am sorry you misunderstood my wording of my post, i meant to day that i agree with your comments in your post and feel that other people who complain about the pay the airlines are offering need to decide why they choose to be an airline pilot or any paid pilot for that matter. i commend your achievments and determination to get where you want to go. i am 25 with a wife and two kids, have been through the rough times of no money and working in a dead end job. my previous employment in a food warehouse gave us 50cents a year increase, you want to talk about race to the bottom. i made less 50k a year with tons of overtime. but with manging money and expenses was able to buy a house and have to nice cars.
once again baja i am sorry that my post was worded inproperly, i meant to agree with you and comment on the people here that feel they should be rich just because they are airline pilots, making over 100k a year is good money anywhere you go in the united states. you may not be able to afford a 1.1 million dollar house but who could. there are very few career fields that can afford that kind of payment. i feel you buy the best thing your money, aka job, can afford. if we had the means to tell our employers i want to buy this house you need to pay me this much, what would be the point of school and anything else we do to increase or life styles.

 

Speeder - well said and thanks - you have a great understanding of the current situation we are ALL in.

Tim.

 

Great post, and great point; right on!

The job of an airline pilot is not a super human job. It requires skills and knowledge, but not skills and knowledge that your typical person could not learn and perform. Can anybody do it? No! I know a few people I don't think could hack it, but that could go for many careers as well, not just flying.

I think why some people don't have sympathy for pilots, is that some have this attitude of, "hey, I'm an airline pilot, how dare I not make $500K, and how dare you make more than me!" Being an airline pilot is a job, and it better than sitting at a desk for 40 hours+, a week.

 

ChrisH

Being an airline pilot is just a job, however it is a job that has a broad appeal. I don't think you will ever see people lining up to pay 65K in training expenses in order to become a plumber at 18K per year.

I think people don't sympathise with the plight of pilots because many wish they could trade places and some do. It is difficult to make it anywhere but it is especially difficult to make it to the good life as a pilot.

As for myself I have been self employed for almost three years now. The first two years were very difficult but things seem to be taking off in the last 10 months. If next year is as good as this one was it would take a lot to get me to go back.

SkyHigh

 

You are exactly right. It is an "appeal" thing. It is much more fun to fly an airplane than work on plumbing. But I don't think the $65K is spent on an $18K per year job. I think it is spent on the hopes that they will one day get to the "good life as a pilot", and be a SWA, UPS, FedEx, etc., captain.

Some people, and some jobs, unfortunately, involve some lower pay, and rough times starting off. Someone who goes into medical school to become a doctor has to start off as an intern. They will work many 12+ hour shifts, for little pay, and still be in $100K+ debt from medical school. The pay off in the end is good, but so can be the case with a pilot, when/if you get to the majors. And, a $75-$80K regional captain salary ain't that bad either. As mentioned earlier by Baja, can you buy a $1.1 million house with that? No. But, it is still a good salary, and plenty of people live on those salaries and less.

I know a guy who I work with now who is about to graduate college with a business degree in marketing. He wants to work in sports marketing. He applied for a job, that really is an internship, for after he graduates, working for a state golf association. Starting pay; $17K per year. Sure he could find something paying more, but so can a pilot. Those pilots who start flying corporate, or charter, instead of regionals, typically make a good bit more than a first year regional FO.

The airlines business is all about risks. Does the risk mean that pay should also help compensate for that risk? Sure. But a doctor can just as easily lose his license, and be in the same situation. The same can go for other careers. I can take what I am majoring in now, and go be a database analyst with some company and eventually make $80K per year. In fact, my aunt does just that. But, I would rather take the risk, and work my way to being a regional captain making $80K per year. And, if I am one day lucky enough to make it the majors, like UPS, or SWA, and be making $150K+ per year, than even better.

I wish you all the luck with your business, and I hope it continues to do well. You seem to like it very much. I think everybody has to just do what they like, and what appeals to them.

 

As for pay for Doctors...often pilots compare our wages to those of doctors, and show the general ignorance towards that profession that everyone shows towards ours. While I myself do not have the entire picture, let me paint a more complete picture for us to compare ourselves to. The pedestal isn't all that high. A medical student, having gone through 4 years of undergraduate education, and possibly additional post grad work, must then drop about 100k on med school. After that, they then work as a resident for 3 to 10 years depending on their specialty. Pay during this period ranges from 38k to 48k, requires an average of 70-80 hours per week with one or more sjifts per week in excess of 24 hours (and no minimum rest rules to protect them, or hotel beds, or per diem). Upon completion of residency most doctors will find salaries of about 100k to 180k. They run the risk of losing their job as much as we do, but they have one other catch that we don't have. Malpractice insurance is rising rapidly. An OB/GYN must pay upwards of 70k per year to protect themselves from inevitable lawsuits. Take that 70 away from a taxed 150, and you are left with an amount on par with a 5th year regional captain. And that is after 5 years in the field, including residency. So are they really ahead of us? Not really. And with insurance companies pressing hard for reduced rates, doctors are seeing a wage pinch all their own. Sure, there are senior doctors, and elite surgical specialty doctors who are making 300-600k, but they are certainly not the norm. They are aviations FedEx'ers...years of odd hours and rough family life.
In short....Our dilemma is not as bad as we think. Wages are going down, but 75k a year as a regional captain or legacy FO is still livable, still beyond my parents greatest combined income. Lets fight to keep our wages from sliding too far, but appreciate what we still have

 

I may have said it earlier on this post but let me say it again - Going into this field I knew of no other profession where we can make in excess of $100k and leave ALL of our work at work. Doctors / Lawyers are most always working, thinking of something going on at work. It may be a current case, a law brief, or maybe a patient that's now in ICU. We on the other hand can leave EVERTHING (unless you have the hots for a young new f/a) at work until our next shown time. Pretty nice I think. Except for these crappy times - now all I worry about is recall or where I'm going to get my next job.

Tim.

 

A pilot can spend 5-10 in "residency" making 18-25k a year than has to quit at 60 (maybe 65 soon) I've seen doctors and lawyers well into their 70's making top end pay. They normally don't go through 4 or 5 furloughs starting from scratch each time or have their skills tested once or twice a year risking termination for a bad day. They don't have people randomly testing their breath or **** because some politicians think its a good idea. No one worries about the physical or mental health of a doctor cutting you open or lawyer arguing the death penalty. Most other professions don't involve spending over half your life away from home.
I don't expect to be one of the 200+k per year guys, Hell, I never will, but for the guys at the top more power to them they've paid their dues.