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So how much should a pilot be paid?

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So how much should a pilot be paid?

Old 11-15-2005, 09:07 AM
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Exclamation So how much should a pilot be paid?

Okay, before anyone else answers, the answer is, as much as you can negotiate. Now, how are we going to restore our pay to previous levels? That is the $64,000 question. I have an answer.

ALPA and APA and SWAPA need to agree on a common contract. It costs X amount to hire a 737 pilot and X+ to hire a 777 pilot. Thats it. I envision all pay going up dramatically but the difference between large and small aircraft needs to be reduced. Work rules would include the rigs and min pay needed to insure decent schedules and pension guarantees managed by the Union not the airlines.

I know this path has many pitfalls. Union corruption is one big one. But we need to level the playing field. We need to remove the argument that, "Brand X airline has lower labor costs and therefore we have to lower ours." If we all get paid the same (COLA differences) we force management raise revenue to pays costs. Labor costs should be NON-NEGOTIABLE just like fuel costs. Do you think Brand X tells their fuel vendor, "Sorry we can't pay you that much for fuel. We are going to pay you 30% less from now on." I don't think so.

This will not come easy and Union leaders will be threatened with prison. They will be threatened with racketeering charges. We need leaders willing to take that chance and we need lawyers able to keep them out.

This can be done but it will take some "outside the box" thinking. This needs to be addressed at the next ALPA BOD.
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:35 AM
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Default JetBlue

Mike,

What about JetBlue, Virgin America, Allegiant, Frontier, Airtran, Aloha etc.. ?? If you force your companies to pay above what the market will bare then you will assure your eventual demise. That type of thinking is what toppled the legacy carriers.

We have a capitalist economy and a huge growing glut of trained and experienced pilots. Most of them would fly a 737 for one third of what you are earning now. Our skills are not very rare or difficult to get anymore. It takes less time to become to go from zero to a trained and licensed 737 FO than it takes to become licenced to cut hair. It is more difficult to become qualified to enter someones house and replace a light switch for pay than to get a commercial pilots licence.

Free market dynamics will prove that these conditions will only serve to lower pay and benefits. Any artificial means to raise pay will only have a negative result. You might have better luck if you wrote your congressman and asked him to install a law that would fix pilot wages nationwide.

SkyHigh
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:54 AM
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Default Pay Rates

Since you asked

Estimated future pay scales:

Domestic 737, 757, 767, MD80 Ect. CA $65K FO $45K

Regional RJ CA $45K FO $25K


A few companies in the US are already getting away with these pay rates without any sign of them having problems finding willing new hires.

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Old 11-15-2005, 10:01 AM
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Default No thanks...

No thanks..I'll stick with IT and fly a c-172 for fun on the weekends...

-LA
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Old 11-15-2005, 08:55 PM
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Actually that's a very valid argument. Pattern bargaining has been used to great effect in other industries. As a pilot who has had his pay used to subsidise poor management for 18 years I would like to see an end to the slide that we see.

Sky High, I don't understand what you would like to see this profession become. Did you fail your shot at a major? I could understand jealousy or envy but to wish for 150 seat rates to fall to the levels of a Mesa or Comair is absurd. It's poor business to continually squeeze labor to enrich the ceo and a few stockholders. After flying for 25 years with 12 to 15 to go I'm still not anywhere near what my Dad was at when he was flying for UAL. My salary now is what his was at back in 1987. I don't know about you but it takes a lot more dollars today to buy what you could back in the 80s.

There will always be low rent airlines out there. The market will see them come and go (as will the FAA when they inevitably run afoul of the FARs). There will always be scabs who would sell out to take another pilot's job away. There are lists that take care of them as well. Selling out is not a blueprint for establishing a career. We need to boost pay and flock to the companies that treat us well and pay us what we deserve (and negotiate).
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Old 11-16-2005, 06:02 AM
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Default CactusMike

C Mike,

My hopes would be that everyone would have successful careers at the airline of their choice and that we all were paid a good wage. Reality dictates that most won't. I think that the future pay rates are absurd as well but what is out there to stop it? Even if you are able to hold on to a top pay scale competition will jump in and steal your pax with lower fairs. Two minutes on the computer and I can see who has the cheapest fair from PHX to SEA. You are correct about my failed career (former N7), but I am not negative I just don't have rose colored glasses. When I take stock of the situation I see thousands upon thousands of experienced and unemployed pilots who would do the same job as you for a third the price. (Sadly myself included) Maybe it is easier to stay in the fantasy world.

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Old 11-16-2005, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mike734

This will not come easy and Union leaders will be threatened with prison. They will be threatened with racketeering charges. We need leaders willing to take that chance and we need lawyers able to keep them out.

This can be done but it will take some "outside the box" thinking. This needs to be addressed at the next ALPA BOD.
First, you hit it right on the head; no union leader is ever going to lead their membership down a path that the union management could be held responsible for. No one is going to vote in a system that will mean they could possible get prison time.

Second, if you ask Duane Woerth his retort would be 'yeah, but United 2000 would have never happened'. The current system allows ALPA to sit back and shout the rah-rah without having to do a whole lot. Remember each airline has its' own union that is supported by national, not the other way around like you see with pipe fitters, electricians, carpenters, etc. This allowed the industry-leading pay scales witnessed with UAL's contract in 2000 (a homerun swing, for sure, by ALPA's point of view).

As a result, the current system pits pilot group against pilot group (sound familiar?) to "raise the bar". As a result, there is little to no safety net on the way back down the pay scales.

Another reason you'll never ever see a national seniority list is, no one has the balls to tell every fighter pilot they have to start their careers at a turbo-prop regional. If you look at other unions that have all the protections you claim you want, there are certain things that come with it that may be less than desirable. For instance, most require an apprenticeship after your schooling. Necessarily certain groups would be excluded from direct entry into this career in the future.

At this point it may seem advantageous to change the representation at airlines, but realize, I think this ship is just too big to turn around at this juncture. We're stuck with what we've got for now. Just look at the RJDC (not that I agree or disagree with them, they are used merely as an example) to see how it is not easy at all to change a system to fit what your pilot groups' need.

Just my 1/50th of a buck.

Respectfully,

JayDub
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Old 11-16-2005, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Since you asked

Estimated future pay scales:

Domestic 737, 757, 767, MD80 Ect. CA $65K FO $45K

Regional RJ CA $45K FO $25K


A few companies in the US are already getting away with these pay rates without any sign of them having problems finding willing new hires.

SkyHigh
Are you stating those salaries as base (beginning salaries), or top off salaries. If the latter is the case, I don't think the airlines can get away with that in the long run. In the short run, there are plenty of new, young pilots, like myself, who would take those jobs. In the long run, however, as word gets out, the airlines will have problems hiring people at those salaries.

If those are beginning salaries, however, they may be able to get away with it more long term.

Personally I don't think we are looking at those type of salaries, especially as top off salaries. I still think the 12yr+ captain at a major will make $100K+, and that regional pay will stay about where it is.
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Old 11-16-2005, 07:33 AM
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I don't think companies would have any trouble at all filling classes with those pay scales. Back in 2000 during the peak of the hiring boom National Airlines had no problem finding experienced 757 pilots to fly as captain for 55K per year. During every basic indoctrination class the founder would come in on the first day and give a speech on how we would never earn more than 100K as long as we worked there and still pilots were lined up around the block. After the new hires are clear of training they might gripe a little but there are thousands more out there to take their place.

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Old 11-16-2005, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SkyHigh
I don't think companies would have any trouble at all filling classes with those pay scales. Back in 2000 during the peak of the hiring boom National Airlines had no problem finding experienced 757 pilots to fly as captain for 55K per year. During every basic indoctrination class the founder would come in on the first day and give a speech on how we would never earn more than 100K as long as we worked there and still pilots were lined up around the block. After the new hires are clear of training they might gripe a little but there are thousands more out there to take their place.

SkyHigh
I see what you are saying, and I am sure even in the long-run there will still be people trying to get those jobs. You don't think, however, that in the long-run, as time continues to pass, that less and less people will be trying for those jobs? Especially when word gets out, and people realize that it truly is not worth it.

I think, again, it all depends on whether you are stating those salaries as base salaries or topped off. If a B777 captain will look to only make $65K topped off, that is ridiculous. If, however, the starting salary for that B777 captain is $65K, although that is ridiculous, considering what they make now, it is better than topping off at that rate, and I'm sure there will still be people lined up for the job.

As far as the regional pay you mentioned, that is about what is it now, as far as base salary goes. FO; ~$25K, CA; ~$45K.
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